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Core Sound 17 & 20 mk3 building from plans (no kit) among other questions


Alt12
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Hello,

 

I'm interested in the core sound 17 & 20 mk3 designs.  I wonder how realistic it is for a home builder to build the boats successfully with plans only (no kit).  I'm located in Canada so it might be cost prohibitive for me to have a kit shipped up here.  I especially wonder about the "puzzle piece" joints that I see in the finished boats.  These look like they would be quite tough to cut out accurately with a jigsaw.

 

I'd also like to know what the sitting headroom is in both the 17 & 20 mk3.  I'm a tall guy (6'5") and based on the core sound 17 mk3 tour video I am convinced that there is room for me to sleep aboard but I have not been able to find any concrete information on how much headroom there is between the seat and the ceiling of the cabin.  Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Alan

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I just bought a Core Sound 17 Mark 3, hull number 6, an early build named Avocet. Because I got it in November and brought it to Wisconsin it went right into storage and I only explored it for a couple hours at my son’s house. This is Avocet’s story with me so far:


I am 6’5” as well.  (Again, I was only in the cabin for a few minutes so my experience is very limited.) The headroom was… OK… and I can tell that I will need to get used to moving around in ways that avoid my head meeting the bulkheads.  But, I did lay down on a bunk to see how I fit. I believe that I will be quite comfortable sleeping and stretching out… there is a LOT of space aft of the “end” of the bunk (under the seats)  for storage… and legs. It seems to me that some modifications were made to provide more head room in subsequent Mark 3 plans.  Check with B&B about headroom numbers. Alan did a great overview of Graham’s CS17 Mark 3 at 

 

A number of builders in this forum have done a great job of documenting their Mark 3 builds and questions which arose. 
 

I built a Core Sound 15 from B&B’s FULL kit that included all parts accurately cut that fit together perfectly. Epoxy, glass cloth, rigging and sails were part of the kit.  The price, I thought, was very reasonable and seems to be considerably less than other kits I’ve seen.  I’m not sure how much more the kit cost than the actual cost of the high quality materials B&B uses for their kits. With the kit approach, I had the boat in the water in 3 months (without sails… the shutdown slowed the sail order).  I have the satisfaction of assembling a well built boat by using the kit and studying Alan’s video series. If you’ve not seen the 20 videos check them out.  It is WHY I decided to go with B&B Yachts and a Core Sound 15.  (First video link on this page.)

https://bandbyachtdesigns.com/core-sound-15-plans/
 

This is my build blog for Norma T:


Alan has assembled a list of builds with links to builders’ blogs:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vT1R3As1Yb5QnI4u8--O5NTlJ-4BA37E68n0ofQhhsxFVAAHtuAiY7FDI0dJvZTNtGr_5PhK3u3cPmF/pubhtml?gid=1922175428&single=true
 

Finger joints were the first thing I needed to do in my build and, while doing any task for the first time feels intimidating, I followed the process in the videos and plans and the finger joints made very effective and solid joints.  I don’t see finger joints as a feasible thing to cut accurately with a hand saw.  I built a ski boat in 2021 from plans only and used butt joints for the side and deck pieces.  I bought my plywood and solid wood from B&B and had a scarfs cut onto the ends of a few 9mm plywood pieces to make the joints for the bottom planking.  Finger joints would have been more effective, I think. 
 

I encourage you to give strong consideration to a kit for a Mark 3 build.  Time savings is significant and parts are perfectly accurate to allow for your own quality build. Shipping might not be as high as you think.  I decided to pick up the kit myself rather than arranging for shipping  I enjoyed making the trip to North Carolina to meet the B&B people and ask a ton of questions. Graham and Alan spent a few hours with me providing information and verbal assistance. 

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Everything to do with boats is a tradeoff. One of the biggest trades is money for time.

If you can make accurate cuts and have some patience you will be able to build a boat with B&B plans.

I built my Spindrift 11 with plans and the templates that B&B provided. When I got into a bind I just called them up and they

put me back on track. Have fun whichever way you go. 

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Alt 12

mark rendelman here hull#24( aka Barbara Kay) I purchased a set of plans to help with construction because I wanted to make the solid wood out of something other than pine they are quite helpful since they are full size templates when I built my boat i chose to raise the seat tops because I have just the opposite of you iam 5’6 .if you call Alan at the shop he can look up the height from seat top to roof on his cad drawings as for the finger joints they can be re placed with normal scarf join If lall you have is a jig saw to cut out the parts it will make this build very challenging you should at least have a table saw

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I agree with Mark about the finger joints.  They will only work if they are CNC cut.  Without that level of precision, you are asking for a disaster.  I’ve built nearly all of my boats using a standard 7:1 scarf joint. Not sure what’s on the plans, but my money would be on that.

 

As much as I love building from plans, I would never consider building a mark 3 from anything but a kit.  A kit takes long enough to build.  Building any cabin sailboat of this size required a lot of time and stamina.  Building from plans doubles the task.  This is just my opinion.  


But I do want to add that these boats are awesome boats.  

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I don't want to speak for anyone else, but if you are serious about purchasing and the shipping is the only obstacle, depending on your location in Canada there are lots of people on this forum who like to help out.  If you reach out you might find someone willing to take a shipment or drive a bit to help you out.

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Thanks for all the responses.  Yes I should probably get a shipping quote before ruling that option out completely.  It seems that building from a kit is highly preferred and would likely contribute to the overall success of the project.

 

Alan from B&B responded to my previous email and gave me the sitting headroom measurement (33 1/2") for the Core Sound 17 mk3.  At my height that would be a tight squeeze and I couldn't really sit without hunching over.  

 

I am still hoping to get the same measurement (from bench to ceiling) for the Core Sound 20 mk3 either from Alan or someone on the forum.

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Alan from B&B just got back to me.  I'll document this here is case anyone is looking for the information in the future.  The sitting headroom in the Core Sound 20 mk3 is either 35 1/8" or 37 1/8".  Apparently you can lower the benches by two inches by cutting them down to provide the extra headroom.

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For what it’s worth (I more or less said this above)… I really enjoyed the quick and efficient building of my CS15 from the kit.  More, however, I enjoyed having time for sailing it even in my first year of retirement.  And, since my new acquisition Avocet has only been in storage since my purchase, I’m anticipating a LOT of sailing this coming year, and especially to broaden my sailing experiences to a bunch of other Wisconsin lakes… and perhaps a couple of the Great Lakes. 
 

I’m glad you were able to connect directly with Alan.  Whatever you decide to do… Enjoy!

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For someone your size I would highly recommend building a CS 20.3 instead of a 17.3, even if you plan on sailing solo.  I've completed several overnight solo cruises and never felt like it was too much boat for one person.

 

The nice benefit of buying a kit is that it solves your marine plywood sourcing problem (which is hard enough in normal times, but with all the supply chain issues we are having, quality marine plywood might be extremely expensive if you can even find it in stock).

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There is no reason why you cannot build an equal quality boat from the plans.  We use the same parts file for the full size plan sheets that come with the plans as the cut file for the kit. You do not have to do any scaling or lofting. If you are meticulous in marking and cutting, and use a good quality marine ply, you will have the same boat. You do have to do your own scarfing but you can do butt tape joints, which are just as strong but take extra fairing. 

 

The point that some have made about the huge time saving of the kit cannot be over emphasized. It all depends on your burnout index. If you have a bunch of unfinished projects in your life, starting from plans might not be a good idea. 

 

We have shipped quite a few kits  to Canada but we usually get burned because the Customs finds an extra fee or two that was not in the shipping quote. The cost does go up as it crosses the border. We have shipped to an address on this side of the border and the customer has driven over and picked it up. If it can be picked up from a depot, everyone can save a bundle because they charge a lot for home delivery and the mk3 kit is so heavy that you need a truck with a forklift. The lid is just screwed down but drivers cannot wait for you to remove the lid and decant the contents. 

 

As for headroom, at 6'5" you would be much happier with the 20.  I was on Carlita yesterday and thinking of you at 6' 5". At 5' 7" my head just touched the underside of the 1" deep beams sitting sitting tall on 2" cushions which squashed down to about 1/2". The extra 2" in the 3.2 version would not be enough for you, not to mention the extra legroom that you will need.  After my trip to Port Townsend we brought out the updated MK3.2 version incorporating everything that we had learned. The main modification was to add 2" more headroom in both models. Everyone I talked to at the Wooden boat festival talked about headroom. Most of the the other modifications were to make it easier to build. There is not a lot more work in the 20 as they both have the same building steps. The 20 does have more surface area to glass, sand and paint. 

 

 

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Scarfing seems to intimidate many who have not tried it yet. Most who try, find it easier than they thought, though using a hand plane and/or belt sander does require a bit of familiarity. I found 4 sheets at a time to be the best for me.  I line them up staggered by 8 times the thickness.  That is, each sheet is set back from the one under it by this 8x  the thickness measurement. (1/4", better known as 6 mm sheets are set back 2" or 48 mm) I built a temporary 16' bench for scarfing, gluing and cutting out these large pieces.

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On 1/13/2022 at 8:07 PM, Alt12 said:

Vancouver

I have used Express Air which is located at the Victoria airport for importing things into Canada.  They have a terminal in Blaine, Washington to receive the item then they truck/ferry it to Victoria.  You go to the airport and walk the paper work through customs.  They are quite reasonable cost wise.  Last year I imported a vintage motorcycle in a crate and they charged me $50.  I think I got a “good customer” deal on that but using this service has saved me a lot of money over the years.

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It is my understanding that a CS20 mk 3 is only three sheets of plywood more than a 17.  Given the increased headroom for a person your size. That’s the logical choice.

 

It makes sense to me that B&B’s plans would be drawn with scarfing in mind, but I haven’t seen those plans.  Good that Designer clarified it for you.

 

Scarfing is easy.  It just takes time, as does laying out, cutting, and trimming.  You do know that every part should be cut proud to the line, and brought to the line with a block plane.  That’s the time consuming part.

335D3BF3-049C-469C-8B27-DD302CDFAE41.jpeg

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I'm sure I'm gonna get fussed at about this, but...

On 1/14/2022 at 10:22 AM, Designer said:

You do have to do your own scarfing but you can do butt tape joints, which are just as strong but take extra fairing.

I've built many boats over the years including a princess 22 Sharpy, Core Sound 20, and Outer Banks 20 and butt joined all of them with no problems. I guess I'm just lazy, but (sorry about the pun), I'm perfectly happy doing it. I've tried scarfing and it is just to much work for a lazy person. (And I do have ADD.)

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I've scarfed many panels together. Getting the proper bevel isn't difficult especially if you are doing multiple stacked sheets at the same time. Properly aligning and gluing the feather edges without getting a slight thin or thick joint is finicky. They can require just as much fairing as a butt joint.

 

Last year I made a sailing canoe and the plans called for butt splices with fiberglass reinforcement. That is the only method I would use going forward.

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When finishing with high gloss paints, any surface anomalies become exaggerated.  Using a finger joint is the best deterrent.  A 7:1 scarf is second best, although I can see a lump in one of my boats where I have one.  A reinforced butt joint has to come in last in this regard.  
On the other hand, Chick is a master builder.  I am surprised at his statement.  I will need to revise my thinking; not about Chick, but about butts.  (Joints)

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