Core Sound 17 or 20

[Keiffer]

I have decided to build the Core Sound but cannot make the final decision on which one? Any thoughts, input, pros or cons would be appreciated. I was originally settled on the 17 but then think if I am going to spend the time and money why not build the larger faster 20? I can't imagine the time or money investment would be that much different between the two. I live in Atlanta, GA and will be sailing on Lake Allatoona and Lake Lanier. I will be single handing the boat at times and have been told this would be easier on the 17. The 20 is pushing the limits of space I have build the boat - my garage is 20'-6" but I assume building on a cradle with casters so the boat can be rolled into diagonal position to work on.

Anyone care to sway me one way or the other please jump in.

[ChrisObee]

There is probably not much difference in sailing the 17 and the 20 singlehanded.  handling the boat outside of the water on the other hand, the 20 will be much heavier.  I'd go with the 17. 

[Ray Frechette Jr]

I don't find either boat to be that much more of an issue with handling on off beaches etc.

I just don't see that much of a difference.

Handling under sail the same.

The 20 is of course more stable underfoot on the wtaer and it is i noticeable of course but not dramatically so.

IE crew movement when at anchor or drifting...

I would say that trying to build a 20 in a 20' 6 " garage would be a bear compared to a 17.

I have a 26' deep garage and I limit my building to 22 feet and under for that reason. 

And to be truthful, the 20 does not get you a whole heck of a lot that the 17 doesn't already provide you.

It gets you a wee bit more speed,  a bit more stowage space and a foot and a half more cockpit space.

Biggest advantage is if you want to sleep on bed platform forward of mizzen mast the 20 gives you 9 more inches of clearance between mizzen mast and forward bulkhead.  17 gives you 6' 3".

Now of ocurse a resourcefull builder could sneak a few more inches moving that forwrd bulkhead a bit but that involves some serious modification from plans and that is always fraught with potential complications...

Other area a 20 give substantially more is the foot space between cboard trunk and seat bulkhead forward of the thwartseat on the starboard side.

[Maria CS20 104]

I am building CS20-104 and our car port is about 19 feet.  I put up a temp shelter with plastic and cloth which has worked well.  I look forward to the launch and being able to take several friends and family on outings.  Wife, son, daughter, son-in-law, and two small grandkids, and still plenty of room for me.  I like the bigger boat although it will be heavier than the 17.

Jim

[MickG]

I was faced with the same decision. I, however, had my boat built and the builder, Geoff Kerr of Two Daughters Boatworks in VT told me that the difference in cost would be only a few hundred dollers. I did go with the 20 and am glad that I did. I like the additional room and stability. I have had as many as eight people aboard and did not feel crowded. I have single handed it with no trouble. In face, that is why I went to a CS 20 rather than use the tow 19ft Lightnings that I do have. A lLightning which is roughly the ame size (19 ft vs 20ft) and just about the same sail area is impossable to single hand sail in winds much over 10 -12 mph. The main sail aarea is in one big sail and it has qu9ite a big heeling lever.  There is no reason a 20 footer could not built with a weight less that 600 lbs. I would go with the 20  Mick

[tom151]

I will be single handing the boat at times and have been told this would be easier on the 17. The 20 is pushing the limits of space I have build the boat - my garage is 20'-6" but I assume building on a cradle with casters so the boat can be rolled into diagonal position to work on.

Perhaps buy the CS20 plans and build it at 19' long (just shorten the boat at the tramsom by the one foot) -- you'll be glad to have the extra stability me thinks.

[Terry Dunn]

I built my CS 20 in a double garage 20' 7" deep. I kept it on a cradle with castors and was able to put my wife's car in the garage as well when I had my mess cleaned up. I cut my wood on my deck so I did not need room for that stuff in the garage. So it is doable without too much trouble.

If you are going to load her with a bunch of people on a regular basis the 20 may be the way to go. I have enjoyed my 20 but now that I am 7 years older I kind of wish I had the 17. I could get a 17 in my garage on the trailer when I want to work on the boat without putting it diagonally . The 17 would be less weight to launch and retrieve. Smaller masts to step. I chose the 20 because it was the biggest boat I could build in my garage.

[Ken_Potts]

I wanted to build the CS20 but I decided I didn't have enough space and I built the 17.  I love my CS17.

My boat is usually crewed by just me or me and a friend.  Once in a while my boat carries 3 or even 4 people.  I have a Thankgiving trip coming up and it would be nice to get all 6 people on board but we'll just take shorter sails and go out in two groups.  I rarely find myself with more than two other people interested in going.

Did I mention I love my CS17?  :cool: (I would have loved the 20 also)

[Tom Lathrop]

Is bigger better?  No, it's just bigger.

I recently built the prototype Lapwing and at 15' 8", its much smaller than either the 17 or 20.  I know from long experience that the size of the boat (as long as its not a toy) has nothing to do with the pleasure you will get from it.  I chose the smaller boat rather than the CS17, which was my original intent, because I am getting too long in the tooth for the athletic stuff. 

The speed differential of the CS17 and CS20 can easily be eclipsed by the skill of the sailor and is very little anyway.  From the helm, the speed difference will not be noticed.  If the extra room of the 20 is needed, then it should be the choice.  Otherwise, the 17 will be a better match for most people.  This is a big 17' boat and the thoughts on stability between the two is, in my opinion, not really true, except perhaps at the dock.  The greater buoyancy righting moment of the 20 is offset by the extra sail area.  Sailing single, its more than offset by the sail area and reefing will be more often required.

Not mentioned so far is the much greater effort required in rigging the CS20 with its bigger and heavier masts.  For smaller or older sailors, this is not trivial.  Ray is a big husky guy (notice the complimentary description ) and Brent is young and tall.  I am neither and many others will fit my category more closely than theirs. 

Its easy to get into the bigger is better mode but the opposite is often true.  Read the article on cruising in Baja in a BRS15 on the website.  This is a very small boat compared to the CS17 and not nearly as seaworthy.  Just look what has been done multiple times with it.

The CS20 is a great boat but I think most people will be better suited to the CS17.

[Randy Jones]

The CS17 on a trailer will fit into your garage for storage which is awfully nice.  Also consider rather you are going to motor or row.  I don't carry a motor as my CS17 can be rowed at 2.5 knots when needed.  I've never had the chance to row a CS20 but would guess it would be a little more work to row.       

[Ken_Potts]

Or... Build one of each and report back to us! 

[John Turpin]

Or... Build one of each and report back to us! 

Could you make a 17 that would nest inside a 20?

[paul_stewart]

Keiffer,

CS20 rowing?  We have found that any one of us can row our CS20 at 2.5+ knots using our 11' oars.  (That's on flat water with no wind.  Of course, rowing against a current 'feels' the same, just as walking on a treadmill 'feels' normal,  while rowing into a 10 knot headwind feels like "Yikes! I can't pull these oars through the water at all!"  Rowing with both oars is slightly faster than rowing with one; however, rowing with both hands on one oar is easier and requires less skill.  Putting one oar in a transom oarlock and sculling is slower but works well for easing up to a dock.)

CS20 in the garage?  We used a hinged trailer tongue to allow our CS20 to fit in our 20'-long garage.  

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/index.php?topic=5825.msg59915#msg59915

 

--Paul

[DLM]

Hi all,

I am also a new member but have been reading the site for a while and have had similar questions.

I've seen a lot of posts where the topic of the additional effort to rig the CS 20 has been mentioned but have I not seen any specific info.

Can anyone provide the approximate weights for the main/mizzen masts on each boat, CS 17 & 20?

Also how much variation would you expect for either design between an all aluminum spar and ones that incoporate a birdmouth top section?

[Ken_Potts]

  Hi DLM - Welcome to the forum!

  As drawn the aluminum masts are two sections of aluminum nested into each other with a wood section at the top.  The top sections of the masts on my CS17 are solid wood and I can muscle them around pretty well.  When I first rigged the boat it took a lot of effort to get the masts up but it's easy now because I'm working smarter instead of harder.

  If you're worried about the difficulty in rigging the boat you can build tabernacles and let your 11 year old daugter do it  :cool:  Without tabernacles I can get my boat rigged in ten minutes without difficulty - That's the time from gettting out of my truck to getting into my truck to put the boat in the water.

  I often pull into the parking lot to find another boat that is halfway rigged and they don't launch until I've been across the lake a couple of times.

  Sorry - I don't have actual weights to give you but I can swing by the storage place and weigh the masts if you need me to.

  One more thing - I've got sleeve-luff sails so when I step a mast I'm also carrying the weight of the sail.  I would guess that the CS20 masts with sail tracks aren't any more difficult to manage than my masts with sails rolled up on them.  Maybe Paul will let me rig his boat and I can post the comparison (wanna go sailing Paul?)  

[wkisting]

We love our CS20, but it is large. Together with trailer it JUST BARELY fits our 2-car garage on the diagonal. If you build it on a cart with casters, it will be no problem to work on, but you'll probably find you prefer to work by rolling it outside for extra space. That's how we built our first boat, in a tiny 1-car garage. (The CS we built outside under a purpose built 25' long awning.

If you would like to see/sail our CS20, we're over in Augusta, GA... would be glad to show it to you or take you out sometime. My cell is 706-513-4346, name is Wes.

[ecgossett]

I have enjoyed taking a Flying Scot out and was told the CS17 is similar in how it handles. Just a good stable boat..

[Keiffer]

Thank you all for your responses. I have decided on the 17, then the 20, then back to the 17, then Paul enlightened me to the hinged trailer tongue so that put me back to the 20, and on and on it goes I will in time let you all know what i decide on.

Wes, Thank you for the offer I am quite sure I have seen and read about your boat somewhere on line. I would love to see your boat and if opportunity permits go out on it with you. I am headed off to Orlando for a wedding and won't be back until sometime next week. I will check in with you when I return. Thanks again for the offer.

KP

[Dale Niemann]

I built "Lively" in a single car garage 18' X 10'.  My recommendation to you is go for the '17 just due to space.  I had her on a dolly but still it was a royal pain dealing with the space requirements.

Dale

[Maria CS20 104]

Working on our CS 20 has put me in better shape than I was 10 years ago with the bending and sanding and bending and sanding, and did I mention sanding?  Moving and toting parts and pieces and maneuvering around the small space of the car port has introduced me to many muscles that I forgot or did not know I even had, PARTS IS PARTS and they seem to make themselves known at 55 years of age.  It sure is a HELL of a lot of fun to see the progress and KNOW YOU DID IT, (with help of course).  GOD BLESS my BRIDE, she has become the champion of our cause, because I ponder too much and move too slow and am too methodical, some times you just need to DIVE in and go for it.  You are not building a Rolls Royce, you are building a dream, yours!  You will have drips and drags in the epoxy and paint, you will have missteps, OOPs the rails for the seats are 1/4" off in the forward end of the people tank and shims need to be figured out, cut and installed (did that too)!  But the journey is worth the pain as you see it come together, and as you see yourself grow through the project.  Whatever you decide, it's yours, it you and YOU WILL be the BUILDER AND OWNER.  It's not an off the shelf experience, but it is MORE than worth the process.

Jim Atkinson

Our Best to You in Your Process