Core sound 17

[Dnjost]

I am getting ready to do the next build, having built and sailed a number of boats. Currently comparing welsford navigator/pathfinder and core sound 17/20 (although the 20) is pushing the building space and resource limits.

Are there any owners/ builders in the northeast us that would be willing yo have a visitor take a closer look?

An honest assessment of how the cs17 sails and rigs would be greatly appreciated.

My requirements are:

Must sail well

Easy to trailer, launch, rig, and derig

Suitable four four adults to spend a day out on buzzard bay, Nantucket sound, Boston harbor, or Narragansett Bay

Readily obtained materials.

Opinions welcome. I have scoured this site extensively and am impressed with the high skill level and sailing expertise found here.

[Randy Jones]

I own a CS 17 and have ridden in a friend's Navigator. The seating arrangements and head/boom clearance in the two boats are quite different. I found the CS seating more comfortable due to the back support and I like that the main sail boom clears the heads of passagers sitting forward. I often sail the CS17 with 3 full sized guys aboard but find it gets cozy with a 4th person.

The other possibly important difference is you can row a CS17 but the Navigators seem to need motors.

Get a ride in both boats if you can. I'm 3,000 miles away so can't help you with that.

[cprinos]

PM me if you want to take a look at an in-progress build (link to my thread is below).

[ecgossett]

The CS17 can sail with four, but handling / stability feels a little sluggish with 4 full size adults in 15 knot winds. If I had the room, the CS20 would have been what I built; bigger, faster, & more comfortable. The 20 is the boat if you want something for a variety of challenging conditions on a big bay with 4 adults on board.

I enjoyed the Flying Scot 18 in the past and the CS17 is very similar (both are wet rides), and has similar handling characteristics with the exception of the cat-ketch rig on the CS17.

My only issue with a couple of navigators I have seen is they are very open, and I have been told you need good water proof bags for stuff. One owner said the waterproof hatches, bought and installed will still leak a little bit. On the Core Sound you have the whole forward deck over the forward seats that works very well for dry storage (just push a jacket or shoes under), and many other options to build in such as aft compartment (driest place on mine), and lockers under seats.

On the CS17 trailering is easy, and rowing with a pair of paddles that was slightly too short was easy. Paddling with one adult and youth paddling is very easy as well and fun with a crowd on board.

[Phil Garland]

I am building a Core Sound 17 in Bristol, RI which can be seen anytime. It is finished on the inside and primed but we plan on turning it over to glass the bottom later this week. By mid November it should be right side up for final fitting out. I liked the smaller version because it should be easier to rig, launch and retrieve.

[Brent]

An aquaintance with a beautifully done Welsford boat REFUSES to sail along with the Core Sounds because his boat has no hope of keeping up.

To take four adults out in those big bays and sound you will really appreciate the Core Sound 20, especially when you are running home in deteriorating conditions.

[Dnjost]

I see the logic for the cs 20' but would need to re-evaluate my building space. I do mostly single handling and am a little Leary of stepping the bigger spars as well.

Great insights here from all. Thank you so much.

The navigator has shorter spars and is Beamier, but does not perform as well from what I have read so far.

[ecgossett]

The bigger spars if aluminum are very very light, and in retrospect I would put a tabernacle on the front of my CS17, it would make stepping it in the water or at the dock very easy.

[PAR]

I've sailed both the CS-17 and the Navigator and the CS-17 is clearly the superior boat on every point of sail, though I suspect the sloop might be closer winded in light air, with the right headsail. Of course the Navigator is a salty looking craft, but there also is a lot more rigging, both standing and running compared to a CS-17. The Core Sound is an easier build and likely cheaper too. Both would find conditions in and around Buzzard Bay, compromising at times, but well handled both would do fine. A Pathfinder might be a better comparison than the Navigator, against a CS-17. The CS-17 would still eat it's transom in a race, but the Pathfinder has a little more freeboard and displacement, so she'd "carry on" in rough conditions a little better with a good load on. It's also a more complex build than the CS-17, but this isn't unusual for a boat, nearly twice as heavy (about 500 pounds).

Make a list of the good and bad points for each and balance these against your desires.

[Dnjost]

Is a tabernacle doable as I thought the masts needed to rotate like the laser? A tabernacle would certainly simplify things.

[John Burritt]

Tabernacle plans & info should be available from Designer. Building of one is currently being completed on a CS 17 in boatbuilding class.

[Chick Ludwig]

I went with the cs-20 (see CS-20 Mk 2 thread on this site, started by the designer), because of the room and ability to handle rougher water. Mine also has a cuddy cabin since I like to take 2-3 day cruises. I have the main mast on a tabernacle and the mizzen drops in through the seat. I have not had a problem stepping the mizzen, but in a wind it might be a bit of a challenge. A way to support the foot of the mast as it is raised into position to drop in would solve this. Other than this, the 20 should be no harder to rig than the 17. I'll have more pictures and descriptions on my thread as i go---check-it-out.

[Brent]

Over the years lots of folks have expressed concerned that the CS20 is too big for them to handle solo. With a decade of solo sailing a CS20 I can say with confidence that boat is a fast fun ride for the solo sailor. Never had a problem stepping the masts, or in handling the boat when the weather gets rough.

My boat has sail tracks; the masts are raised as bare poles, without the weight of the sails. The tracks also allow easy reefing when the weather builds. This is an example of many decisions we make as individual builders that give each boat its character. Boats with luff sleeve sails are no doubt more challenging both in raising the masts and in handling heavy weather.

That said, I like the tabernacle idea, which I suppose will make the task of mast raising even easier.

There is a small advantage to having the masts rotate when running down wind or in deep reaches. The advanced sailor, with a sharp eye to air flow over a well trimmed sail can get perhaps an additional 0.1 knot out of the boat with rotating masts on down wind points of sail when conditions are right. This advantage is not in my opinion a sufficient reason to not build tabernacles for the sailor wanting very easy mast raising.

[Gordy Hill]

The tabernacle can rotate. It could be mounted in the mast tube just like a mast.

Just my $.02 worth.

(What ever happened to the cents sign?)

[Dnjost]

Wow Gordy, I had not even thought of that! A rotating tabernacle, very cool.

I must be thinking that these masts weigh more than they actually do. The Marshall catboat was impossible to step, and the micro I owned had a substantial stick to raise as well. These masts must be more similar in weight to a Laser's. those were very light.

[Peter HK]

I think the weight of the masts must go up in direct relationship to age. I have no problem with my cs17 masts with tracks and halyards that weigh about 9 kg. I'm currently mid 50s but I suspect in 10 year's time they may be a bit more difficult

Cheers

Peter HK

[Gordy Hill]

I don't know about Global Warming, but I'm pretty sure gravity has increased in the last ten or twelve years.

[PAR]

¢

¢

¢

This is an ASCII character (0155 or 0162), though most will find it in the Widows supplied character map, found in System Tools.

[Dale Niemann]

I have been sailing my CS 17 'Lively' for about 4 years or so mostly solo. I would say that if you mostly sail with 4 adults you need a CS 20. I am now 72 and yes the masts do get heavier and more unwieldy with age. However, I routinely raise mine with sails rolled on the mast with no problems. I would definitely recommend sail tracks with double reefs. There have been many times when I have been very happy I have had double reefs sailing solo in 25 knots of wind. She planes very easily. 'Lively' has taken very good care of me and I would recommend the CS 17 to anyone. I have a tilt trailer so I never get the hubs wet which saves a lot of problems. She launches with a big push and cranks back on the trailer with ease. No need for a tabernacle.

Good luck with your decision. You can not go wrong with any of Graham's designs.

[Terry Dunn]

Regarding stepping the masts on a CS 20. I found it awkward to step the masts and made some devices to help step the masts. Other builders have made similar devices that are more attractive then the ones I made. A tabernacle is is the way to go for the main. Stepping the masts by myself is quite easy.

A google search can show interesting things.

http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/7559-does-anyone-remember-a-post-about-pivoting-mast-steps/page__st__-20

There are some pictures of my mast step hepers from 2004.