Post your latest rigging advances-Cat Ketch

[wkisting]

Well, I'm sure it's dependent on personal preference. I have my main and mizzen rigged as Graham prescribes in the plans and have found it to be very handy when sitting up on the rail because the lines are so close at hand. In hairy conditions, I hold the main instead of cleating it. But what I like about Graham's set-up is how easy it would be to release the line in the event of a capsize. I see the appeal of the alternative rigging suggestions mentioned here, but my thwart is a cluttered affair already with the mizzen downhaul and CB uphaul. I like having the cleats up on the coaming partly because it also helps keep my sheets off the floor. (I like them coiled neatly on the seats.)

[Designer]

Wes, I am glad that you like the sheet setup.

My point was not to say that you have to rig the sheets like I do. This discussion was about changing the sheeting and I wanted anyone who was contemplating this to know why they were designed this way so that they will be able to make a more informed decision.

[Tom Lathrop]

The way I like to have the sheets run is a lot more expensive unless you have a good parts box and can build your own.

I like having the cleats up on the coaming partly because it also helps keep my sheets off the floor. (I like them coiled neatly on the seats.)

Say it isn't so Wes.  Occasionally someone coils up sheets on my larger racing boats neatly and lays them on the seats.  I then explain why that is not a good way to do it.  That is not as bad as winding them around the hand and elbow like a lot of electricians do with their extension cords.  I like the sheets to lay down in the sole just like they come in.

I'm sure a lot of people on the forum know why. 

[Hirilonde]

You beat me to that comment Tom.  I like leaving them loosely spilled into the cockpit, a lot less chance of tangles.  Neatness isn't always desirable.

[Terry Dunn]

The mizzen sheet on my CS 20 is set up like Brent's method.

My  main sheets go to cam cleats on each side of the thwart. I had them on the coaming but moved them to the thwart. I tend to sit just behind the thwart most of the time. Although on the T200 I generally sat further back and had the sheet cleated but in my hand most of the time. Actually my son was on the tiller most of the time at first and I just enjoyed the ride. He figured out he was doing all of the work on the tiller halfway towards the end of the second day so I was at the tiller more after that.

With One mizzen, two main and the centerboard downhaul in cam cleats on the thwart it is a bit busy. I may move the mizzen sheet back to the double ended method just to reduce the number on the thwart. Especially since I am considering running the mizzen snotter to the thwart to make it easier to tighten.

My motor had not been used for two years but I took it on the T200. Since it is mounted on the transom the mizzen sheets still fouled on the motor. If I am allowed to do the T200 again by management (perhaps in 2010) I hope to leave the motor at home along with some other stuff.

The main snotter, halyard and three downhauls are run back to cleats on the deck on the starboard side about even with the thwart. I am not sure there is much advantage to bringing them back that far. I end up by the foredeck tying the reef in anyway.

[wkisting]

Hmmm... I've only had troubles with tangles when I let the sheets lay on the floor. If it let the pile sit loosely on the seat, it feeds nicely every time and doesn't get wet from bilge water. "Coiled" was the wrong word though... I actually make a neat pile of back and forth loops, not a round spiral/coil. Feeds out very nicely, and stays out of the way of foot traffic. Don't you guys get tangles and knots if you leave it on the floor? I do.

My main controls (snotter, uphaul, downhaul) all run on the starboard side deck, but only run about 3' aft of the forward edge of the cockpit coaming (not all the way back as Terry described). I've found this convenient because the excess line drapes neatly onto the forward seat and stows out of the way, but I can still lean forward and make adjustments while seated just aft of the thwart (my usual position).

[Tom Lathrop]

Hmmm... I've only had troubles with tangles when I let the sheets lay on the floor. If it let the pile sit loosely on the seat, it feeds nicely every time and doesn't get wet from bilge water. "Coiled" was the wrong word though... I actually make a neat pile of back and forth loops, not a round spiral/coil. Feeds out very nicely, and stays out of the way of foot traffic. Don't you guys get tangles and knots if you leave it on the floor? I do.

My main controls (snotter, uphaul, downhaul) all run on the starboard side deck, but only run about 3' aft of the forward edge of the cockpit coaming (not all the way back as Terry described). I've found this convenient because the excess line drapes neatly onto the forward seat and stows out of the way, but I can still lean forward and make adjustments while seated just aft of the thwart (my usual position).

Ah Wes, 

So you lied about the coil ;D ;D  What you have is called flaking a line and a time honored method to avoid hockles that jam in blocks or fairleads.  These are less politely called a** holes and are caused by the line taking a full twist on each revolution of the coil.  The flake is a figure 8 motion which adds and then subtracts a half twist with each coil.  This is also the correct way to make up a heaving line so it will run out freely.  Old Navy training finally came in handy.

There is a correct way to lay down a coil so that it does not add twists but few people actually do it that way.

[wkisting]

Ah yes, "flaking" is the correct term... just couldn't think of it. It's the same way that I stow our anchor rode, and it has always been a reliable way to let the rode run out without tangles. I keep the rode flaked in a plastic bin, and I flake the ends of the main and mizzen sheets loosely on the seats. I have noticed that a true coil does, as you say, create tangles. But I've also had that problem when I let the sheets dangle on the floor. As I haul in the sheet, sometimes a loop piles on the floor and works its way around another loop already sitting on the floor... then, if I have to let the sheet out quickly to depower the sails, it occasionally pulls upward into a tangle, which is actually how my main failed to de-power and gently pulled me onto a lee shore a few weeks ago (I posted about it on my Hull #102 thread at the time). The wind was only blowing about 3 knots, so it was a very gentle grounding and wouldn't have happened if I had been paying closer attention. The only other time I had a tangle problem (which almost capsized me), it was again from letting the sheets pile loosely on the floor. But maybe there's a trick to it that I'm not understanding. All I know is that I've never had problems if I consciously flake the ends on the seat as I haul in. Another trick I learned is that when I let the sheet out, I apply gentle pressure to the line with my thumb and index finger as it slips through my hands to help remove any twist in the line. This is probably obvious to the rest of you. 

[PAR]

This is my centerboard tackle arrangement for Ray's CS-17. Okay maybe not much of a "rig innovation", but it does eliminate much tackle and about 12' of line.

The board is shaped differently as is the case (original shapes shown in light blue). The benefit is the lack of a down haul and it's related tackle. No bungee cords, just an up haul and a weighted board. The top of the case is completely closed, no board arm or tackle attached to it. This leaves it free to lay out sleeping bags, etc. which was a desire of Ray's. I'm not sure if the arm would have interfered with sleeping much, Carla says it doesn't, but it sure is a cleaner look and has much less complication in the tackle. A 15 pound chunk of lead drops the board with authority, but it still can easily bounce over obstructions it might encounter.

[PAR]

Sorry Ray, not you, my client's name is Ray. I don't think there's any confusion over who designed this fine little cat ketch.

[Scott Dunsworth]

This is to do with the comment of keeping the main sheet close by .  When I sail our Belhaven in conductions that warrant I always keep the main in hand or withend easy reach. I have had two very near laying on your side experiences, both because I was flying much more sail than I should have been. When I sail alone I tend to see what I can get by with 8). I have had everything on the bunks and the galley on the floor a few times by sailing as hard as I dare. And when its over with I always think I could have sailed her a little harder. So far as long as I keep the main sheet close by I can push her. When I over do it, a quick snap from the main cleat makes everything right with the world again. She snaps right back on her feet.

When I am sailing with someone else that I feel responsible for, the sheet is close by also. I guess what I am trying to say is its not a big deal to keep the main sheet in hand or close by to feel the high of the conditions.

Graham doesn't know it but every time I over sail our Belhaven I silently thank him for building in safe guards for morons that don't have sense to reef when they should.

The bottom line is what ever it takes keep that main sheet handy and enjoy the the thrill of the the craft that has been designed for you DO IT!!!

Scott

[Guest wwbaginski]

[Travis Votaw]

If I kept PILGRIM in the water rigged and ready to sail, I would definitely try out the wishbone boom, at least on the main.  It would keep the sail up out of the way with little effort and possibly make sail handling easier.

Why don't you try it and report back to us ;D?

[Howard]

My question is less about the mainsheet rigging and more about the sailing characteristics of the boat with cat-ketch rig. In my sloop, she will round up in a gust.....even a pretty big gust. When well overcanvased and needing reef, I'll let some mainsheet out in a gust. But this is a rig with most of the sail area aft of the center of effort of the sail plan. Are cat-ketches that much different? If so, can you trim for that or is it just a part of sailing this rig?

(By trimming, I'm thinking of a reef if the main, but leaving the mizzen full.....moving the center of effort aft to get her to round up)

[wkisting]

Howard, in my experience so far, carrying full sail in everything up to 22 knots, you can trim the sails effectively to combat excessive weather helm. I had trouble figuring this out initially, but I soon discovered that weather helm declines significantly when the mizzen is eased and/or the board is raised a bit (which shifts the CLR aft a little)--though the latter trick only works at high speeds. In lighter airs, raising the board creates too much penalty to performance. Also, sheeting in the main a little closer helps as well. It's a highly maneuverable rig, and once, when I ran aground in shallow water at speeds too slow for the rudder to be responsive (wind was only 3 knots), I was delighted to find that I could "steer" myself off the grounding simply by moving the sails by hand. Very cool.

Lee helm has never been a problem with my CS, but these steps could be reversed to combat it if it were.

[Howard]

Wes:

Your response was what I understood was normal for the cat ketch.....or any good sailing rig....as the wind builds, and gusts hit, they do develop weather helm and try to round up a bit. The free standing rigs also bend in a gust to flatten the sail. So I'm told.

So under what conditions are guys needing to pop the mainsheet to relieve pressure?

Where I get into trouble with my sloop is when the boat is overcanvassed and rounding up and I've lost speed and get hit with a gust while she if flat footed. More drag from the sail than lift and in a blow, enough pressure to lay her over. She always pops up, but it's more excitement than most people care for!

[Apteryx]

Regarding weather helm and the boat's balance, here's my experience - all ten minutes of it...

Back in September after an extension crew selection process - I yelled over, 'Hey, Travis, can I get a ride on your boat?' - I managed to crew for Travis on Pilgrim.  That's the only time I've been on a cat ketch and the air was quite light.

Travis let me experiment a bit and I found the boat pretty responsive to sail balance.  She wouldn't answer as quickly as she did from tiller input but trimming the mizzen nosed her up to weather and trimming the main pushed her bow down off the wind.  Most satisfying.  The boat allowed me to pick weather, lee, or neutral helm - the way it oughta be.

A thought experiment I've been mulling over is the advantage of a little weather helm, and feel free to bail out here.  I just get interested in how boats work.

Fighting a little weather helm means you are pressing the stern to windward with the rudder lift.  I think this must surely reduce the sideways load on the centerboard.

So, at neutral helm the rudder's drag is just a waste.  With a little weather helm the rudder is loaded and it's doing something desirable - helping the boat hold its track against leeway, and the load on the centerboard must be a little lighter.

Does any of that make much difference in boat performance?  Just wondering.

[Dale Niemann]

I have the standard rigging per Graham's plans.  I have sailed in winds up to 25 knots and find the mainsail rigging to be very good.  I like the mainsheet readily at hand when I am sitting on the sidedeck.

With this said, however, I do not like having the mizzen sheets behind me.  I have found this to be acquired for me.  When I have to turn around to adjust the mizzen I loose forward site and a feel for what is going on.  It is just an uncomfortable feeling.  Therefore, as soon as I get the opportunity to change it I am going to move the mizzen sheeting to the thwart pet Brents design.

As others have said, it is personal preference.

Dale

[Ken_Potts]

   There's a big difference between a cat and a cat ketch.  A cat rig has a single sail that is pivoted in front of the center of effort so the more you fall off and the more the sail moves forward the more weather helm you will feel.  Also at the same time the center of effort is moving forward of the center of lateral resistance AND the center of effort is moving to the lee of the centerline of the boat which makes the boat want to round up.  The ketch rig on the CS boats has the same issue with each individual sail but each sail is far enough from the center of lateral resistance that slight changes of trim in either the main or the mizzen result in much greater differences in effort on the tiller.  Also, since the sails are smaller than a comparable cat sloop the center of effort doesn't get as far outboard from the centerline of the boat.  The net result of this is - if you dump the main sheet you get overwhelming weather helm that will round the boat up into the wind and alleviate any anxiety you may have been feeling over excessive heel.  I have a technique that I call the "emergency brake" - I let go of the main sheet and the tiller at the same time and scream like a little girl while waving my hands over my head in case a passing rescue helicopter might see me.  It has always served me well but I have to be ready to jump to the other side of the boat when it stands back up then tacks in a fraction of a second.  ;D

   One of the fun things to do when the wind isn't blowing hard is to let the tiller go and steer the boat with the sheets.  There is no comparison between the balance of a cat rig and a cat ketch rig for that one simple point.  I've been out in many varied conditions and I've never had to fight the tiller.  It's a sweet, sweet rig and you can always get just the right tension on the tiller by tuning the sails.

   My boat has a light helm in all conditions that I have tried so far and is quite quick to sort out a little excessive heel when I get nervous and dump the main sheet.  She's a polite lady and she only makes me swim when I absolutely beg for it (right, Jim?). 

  I guess it's obvious I'm a fan of the cat ketch...

[Jim_Ral]

Right you are, Ken!!!  ;D

Jim