Paul356

He's smiling! Again, all the best to all of you.

Wonderful. Just Wonderful. Welcome, Henry. You're in good hands.

Very nice, and good, thoughtful modifications for your situation. You'll have a good time with that boat.

Rainy Lake turned out to be a wonderful sail camping site, except it's hours from anywhere. Joe, that masthead float is a Graham and Alan special, a turtle ball designed to prevent turtling. It works ok as a wind vane, too.

CarrieB made it to the cover of the new issue of Small Craft Advisor. We had to play second fiddle to the Scamp, since it's SCA, but nonetheless it's fun to see a CS17 on the cover of this mag. This was from our trip last September to Rainy Lake in Voyager's Natl Park in Minnesota. Photo was by John Hippe, proud builder of the Scamp. We had pulled over in the lee of this island for lunch on a very blustery day, hence the double reef. Two sailing kayaks were also on the trip, see the link "Sail Camping..."

Hey, congratulations. Can't wait to see a picture of the little one out sailing with you two.

I sent in an application. Let me know if it works!

Dave, I thought about that later and I think you're right. Lower first, then reef as needed. I'm certainly eager to try all this.

I had some difficulty getting to wind in my 17. Mine is a Mark I, meanings the original design with no cabin and no water ballast. Wind was 20-25, estimated, with waves about 2 feet. I try to estimate conservatively. I asked Graham for some advice, and here is a summary of the Old Master's response, with my comments in (parens). I'm trying to summarize accurately, but I invite Graham to jump in if I misstate or omit. As the breeze freshens, first tighten the snotters to flatten and depower the sails. Then "lower" (assume he means reef) the sails "as much as I can get away with to reduce the heeling force." Then (and this was a surprise to me) "I raise the centerboard so that it rakes to about 45 degrees aft to raise the center of lateral resistance, also reducing the heeling force. "You do need to keep up some speed to make up for the smaller centerboard area." Then Graham adds that "the worst thing that you can do is to pinch, because the waves will stop you. Sheet a little further out than normal but not too much and try to sail her flat and full. I like a fair amount of weather helm in these conditions. My first reef is just the main. If I still cannot hold her up I will reef the mizzen. If you take away too much power, you will be slow in the lulls. Rather than feather too much in the puffs, you are better to ease the main for a few seconds and bring it back on quickly. If you have speed you can come up for the bigger waves as long as you fall back on course right away." He adds, finally, "sailing at large angles of heel is slow." I am eager to try all this, but my breezy sail was the last of the season and the boat needed some repairs after that trip and is now put away. That day, I had put in double reefs on both main and mizzen. I'm wondering now if I would have been better off with just a single reef on the mizzen. Finally, as others have noted: tie the reef points around the sail only, not around the sprits. And the sprits should be on alternate sides, just so that any effects of a "bad side" are balanced. Note again that this is for the Mark I, not for the water-ballasted Mark III that you have, where results and techniques may vary. But you certainly don't want to be out in a blow with lee helm. It's interesting to read all the comments. I'm confident the Core Sounds can go upwind in a blow because, among other things, Graham and Alan have done it. I think it just turns out that the groove is a little narrower than on other points of sail.

Adding foto

You definitely need the full length tiller. Especially in a 17, you need to sit up near the middle thwart, especially upwind, even if you're not alone in the boat. You need to keep the crew weight in the center. That requires the full length of the tiller. Mine is shown in the photo. I also have a tiller extension, which isn't shown because I took it off to do some work on it. You'll see my tiller is straight, but that's a matter of convenience in construction. Curved looks nice. As to pivoting, I can't imagine not having the pivot. It would be like a boom that didn't pivot, or something. But making the pivot is so easy, so why not. It may not show as well in my photo, but my setup is the same as Dave's. My tiller straddles the rudder head, and a bolt through the back keeps it on. As Dave noted, that also allows for more compact storage if needed. Finally, you'll see a tiller lock on the bottom of mine, near the knob end. I use it a lot, but that's a different discussion. Happy sailing.

It's nice to have another B&B in Wisconsin. Plus I like the colors, the name, the wooden seats. All worthy of you and the boat.

My impression in reading about the bivvies is that the top of the "tent" lies right on your sleeping bag. Not sure, but seems that way.

I have a dodger on the CS 17, and really like it. It's quick to set up - 15 seconds - and really cozy under there. I've converted it to a tent for sleeping while camping by adding a tarp, but by itself it provides a lot of shelter and comfort. Now, did I make it? Um, not quite. I ordered a kit from Sailrite, but realized after I got the kit that I'd never get our sewing machine through all those layers. Plus, it seemed really complicated. I ended up making the aluminum bows the way I wanted them with the parts from Sailrite, made an angle gauge to show how they should line up and then took the sunbrella and everything else to a canvas shop. The shop did an absolutely wonderful job, far better than I could have imagined let alone executed. I can sail with it up.

Hey, Steve, I saw Skeena in WoodenBoat. Congratulations!

Comgrats!

My daughter was with me, as noted, and saved the day. Those kids, eh!

Hey, Steve, Having turtled my 17 a few years ago, I know the embarrassment and chagrin. No surprise you didn't rush to write about this. It took me months to go public, and months to get my confidence back. But I also know the learning that can follow, and certainly laud you for your insightful report. Mine, too, was totally operator error. As my wife just said, "Good for you men to write about this." I'm glad to hear you got back on the water so quickly.

No doubt about it. Boats and their builders talk to each other.

Well, I read it somewhere. Enjoyed it. Liked the cozy cabin and the big spray, among other things.

Looks wonderful.

FWIW, I pulled my 17 to a mess about a couple of years ago behind my 4 cyl camry. No issues, including in the mountains of west Virginia. Kept up with the traffic just fine. Also went to CT and back last summer and round trip Milwaukee to international falls this summer.

Good point, Joe. Here was Graham's advice for sailing the CS 17 upwind on a sporty day. I had the winds that day at 20, maybe 25 mph. They were also gusty with variable direction and waves in the 0 to 2- or 3-foot range. So there was plenty of opportunity to play the gusts, the puffs and the waves. 1. Tighten the snotters to flatten and depower the sails. (I had done this). 2. Lower the sails as much as you can get away with, to reduce the heeling force. (I had double-reefed both main and mizzen, but see below). 3. Raise the centerboard so that it rakes to about 45 degrees aft, to raise the center of lateral resistance, and also reduce the heeling force. [Graham then notes: "You do need to keep up some speed to make up for the smaller centerboard area."] (I had never even given this a thought. I understand now what he's saying, since I was heeling a lot, probably often 40 degrees. I say that I try to sail the boat flat, but I wasn't managing to do so that day (see also below). I think part of what Graham is saying is that you're going to trade some leeway for progress. I'm eager to try this tweak.) 4. The worst thing you can do is try to pinch, because the waves will stop you. (I'm sure I was often pinching, and I know the waves were stopping me. Later in the day, in a different part of the lake, the wind was the same but the water was flat and I scooted upwind, tho on broader tacks than 45 degrees, just as Graham's envisions.) 5. To avoid pinching, sheet a little further out than normal but not too much and try to hold her flat and full. [Graham doesn't specify, but I suspect he foresees a fair amount of hiking here.] (I played with the sheet and tried keeping the boat flat, but I suspect I didn't do enough of this and was -- ironically enough -- underpowered. See next. 6. Graham's first reef is just the main. If he still cannot hold her up he will reef the mizzen. "I [i.e., Graham] like a fair amount of weather helm in these conditions. If you take away too much power, you will be slow in the lulls. Rather than feather too much in the puffs you are better to ease the main for a few seconds and bring it back on quickly. If you have speed you can come up for the bigger waves as long as you fall back on course right away." (As I mentioned, I tried playing the sheet some, but I more often was holding the sheet and trying to head up in puffs. I'm eager to try it the other way around: hold course and ease. And I'm also now convinced I should have left the mizzen at one reef, rather than double reefed at that point. Although it was blowing, it wasn't survival.) As Graham notes, all of this can be tiring, especially solo. But he adds that "the CS 17 has a high angle of positive stability, which means that she is forgiving in gusty conditions, but sailing at large angles of heel is slow." A couple more notes: The Scamp has water ballast, which adds 300 (500?) pounds to her weight and certainly helps her carry on through chop. And, when I finally got frustrated with my sailing ability and turned on the 2.5 hp Suzuki, the CS just drove straight to wind like nobody's business, at 5 mph or even more (vs flat calm top end of 6.5 mph). So I was very impressed with that. And I stayed dry, too. And that's my report. --pb

I actually didnt put in a drain tube. I figure the tube is usually filled with mast when exposed to weather, so any collection of water will be minimal. I can put my bilge pump down there if needed when I take the mast out. I didnt like the idea of a hole or drain tube up there. No problems noted so far.

The Scamp is, um, seaworthy. There is no comparison in speed to the CS. If I was going 4.5 that day, he was going 3.5. It actually points ok, tho CS still has the edge. It is also small in the cockpit, tho it has a lot of storage. But 1 person sailing, or 2 people at most. I must admit that on a rough and wavy day, he was able to move upwind double reefed where I was not, but in talking to Graham later, I think it was operator error on my part. Finally, i think the hull is pretty complicated to build vs the 15.