CS 15 vs 17

[jshaley]

The videos I see online of the CS 15 usually show it heeling a bit more than the 17. Is it that much more lively than the 17? The flat sailing of the 17 I find attractive but the 15 seems more right-sized for a beginner build project (although all the tasks are the same, it just might mean more sanding?)

[Hirilonde]

As to whether the sailing characteristics are much different, I wouldn't think so, but I don't really know. As for building, they require the same attention. Maybe the 15 requires a little less sanding, but not significantly less. My decision about size was based on storage space and launching as even a 15 would be big enough for my use. I knew I was moving to Florida for retirement, and garages in Florida are often 20' deep.  My Lapwing on a trailer is 19' 8" long. The CS 15 on a trailer would be a tad shorter, and a 17 on a trailer is probably over 20'. Based on all of the build threads I have read over the years I think I can say that anyone with some patience, a little skill and willing to ask questions who find the idea of building a boat fun can succeed. I like to stress the fun part. If you are building just to try and save money you will find building a boat tedious and used sailboats in good condition are often cheap. I think the 2 best reasons to build a boat are: it is fun, and you can customize the details to your specs. I never recommend changing design details as you will likely sacrifice sailing characteristics as Graham and Alan have done a great job already. Even with the Mach 3s, which were designed to add siginificant comfort to a pocket cruiser, the boat had to sail well first, or they wouldn't desing it.

[PadrePoint]

I built the 15’ from full kit. I’m glad I did. I finished the hull itself in three months.  I then bought a 17’ mark 3 built by another.  I enjoy both for various reasons. The CS17m3 can handle a lot more weather and is a joy to sail and use for overnights.  The CS15 handles a lot of weather as well, but not as much (to my comfort/skill level) and I’ve camped aboard (with a tent) a few times… that works ok. 
I might feel challenged with the 17’ build as the mark 3 has a lot of extra work for the extra nice features… I’m glad I chose to build the 15’; THAT I could do. 

Interestingly, the open cockpit of the 15’ can manage a lot of people for a couple hours of sailing on a lake.  I’ve had six adults and a kid or two in the 15’ and I thought it felt comfortable.  It’s great to give people an opportunity to try their hand at sailing it. The CS15 has one reef and a third mast step (to move the mizzen forward as a single sail) for heavier winds; the CS17m3 has two reefs and water ballast. With both reefs in I found 20+ mph wind almost “boring” and let one out. 
 

So, again, I’m happy I chose the full kit approach of the Core Sound 15 as my build and enjoy it as much as my CS17, especially for its ease of trailering/setup/launch. I can be backing the rigged boat in 10-15 minutes upon arriving at the launch… it simply takes me longer with the 17’. My family seems to like the 15’ more for a few hours on the water.  They say they feel closer and more connected with the water in the 15’ Core Sound. 
 

Don’t know if this helps. 
 

[Steve W]

My .02

 

I always think of open boats sort of like canoes. When you increase the length, it's added to the middle: the ends stay the same and the 2 feet is added in the middle, where the boat is the biggest.

 

If I had the space, I'd go 17. The extra work probably isn't much and the capability to camp on board makes the boat more valuable now and at resale. 

 

Whatever you decide, they are great designs. 

 

Take Care, 

Steve

 

[Don Silsbe]

 What a decision!  The only guy I know who has sailed both is Alan Stewart. I am sure there are more.  But I’ve sailed my Bay River Skiff 15 for many years, and have just “graduated” up to a Core Sound 17.  I’ve only sailed the 17 once, and on a day with light air.  That said, let me tell you about sailing a 15.

 

They are lighter, and easier to launch (but only slightly so).  The 15 will be easier to flip over while building her.  The big difference between the two, in my opinion, is not in tippyness, but in general size considerations.  Several points were made to that fact above. With a 17, there appears to be 50% more room than a 15.   When I built my 15, I was only interested in daysailing.  In recent years, I have taken an interest in camp cruising.  The  17 just has more elbow room than my 15.  If I were only going to do solo daysailing, I’d build a 15.  If you want to sail with guests in comfort, or might want to camp cruise, build the 17.  I’ll be posting my February cruising adventures on this forum, so stay tuned. In the meantime, here are photos of my 15 (yellow) and my 17 (dingy off-white) for your comparison.  I can give you other photos for comparison, but let’s start with these two.

[Don Silsbe]

Here’s the same tent on both boats.  With the 15, I needed to reposition the mast forward to the central position.

 

 

With the 17, it just squeezed into the after area of the cockpit.

[jshaley]

So these are great replies. thank you!

 

Hiriilonde - great point about the garage. I feel inside storage really extends the life of a boat and makes it ready to sail. Yes, the intent is build for fun/
 

PadrePoint - I love the look of your 15 and the capacity being so close to the 17 is interesting. My current Shellback is pretty tight sailing more than solo. The smart thing to do would be kit, I will probably go plans so I ca space out the expenditure with the full understanding in the end this will make the build most likely costlier and certainly longer. Does anyone know who the B&B unfold happens with a plan build without the tooth pattern?

Steve, good point. If one has two-foot-itus prior to the build...

 

Don, I look forward to your cruiser report. I am In NY and often sail the same waters I used to canoe. The 2 feet would be welcome but the 15 may be more manageable in some of the tight spots i get into but also offer way more sea worthiness than the Shellback. I was not thinking about sleeping on the 15, much less an onboard tent - your photos were extremely helpful

Hirilonde

[Don Silsbe]

@jshaley— Many Core Sound boats were built before the geared chine was developed.  Spindrifts, too.  I guess you’d save maybe $1500 by building from plans, but I do know that it’ll take you twice as long to build her that way.  Have you lofted a boat from plans before?  If not, I have a website to recommend for you.  I built most of my boats from plans.  If I did it again, there’d be no question that I’d buy a kit.

[Don Silsbe]

Let me share these two videos with you, so you can understand what you need to do when cutting out the panels using plans.

 

This first one is very good at demonstrating how to take dimensions from the plans, mark the plywood, add nails, stretch a batten, and draw the line.  It is like the old connect-the-dots game, but for grownups.  I like it that he makes a mistake, but eyes the line for fairness.  It is good to catch this before you cut it out!

 

 

This second one is very important.  It shows how you cut out the parts cutting just outside the line.  Then, you use a block plane to bring it to the line.  This eliminates all the wavy saw cutting made by the jigsaw.  I also like that he does a little final pass with a sanding block.

What neither tell you is that for the hull sides and bottom (and other parts requiring identical lefts and rights), you should do both parts at the same time— you stack them before marking and cutting.  This helps to eliminate making an odd-shaped hull.

[Steve W]

John, if/when you build, lmk. I'm in Pittsford and built a Spindrift 11N from plans and a CS 20.3 from a kit. I'd be glad to help...

[jshaley]

Thanks one and all.

Steve (Skeena), love your videos. Your adventures are a big part of what I would like to emulate - trailer to destination and sail/camp. I do this now with Shellback but also have had a Precision 18 and West Wight Potter 14. My sailing was cut in half with the Precision due to challenging mast raising. The two mast approach is very attractive. 

I was passing on the Mark 3's since the builds are more involved and most usage would be day sails.

I have lofted and cut then planed kayak plans, great to hear of successful builds prior to geared shines. Amazing responsiveness in general to my questions.

[Captain Tim]

I built my Spindrift with plans and full printed patterns. I think this saved money over the kit price. Once the parts are cut putting them together is pretty straight forward. If you plan to stretch the build out over time, I suggest building small parts first. Things like the rudder, dagger board and masts. The hull itself is really a small part of the build but takes up a lot of room.
 

[Andy B]

I suspect that the 15 heels more in videos because people just don't think about reefing or spilling wind in a smaller boat.  They sail it like a sunfish.  That's been my personal experience, anyway.

 

Be a man and build the CS-20!  Just kidding.

 

On that note, does anyone know why they chose 20, instead of 19?  Did the extra foot help with design, or was it some other factor?

[Paul356]

I've done a lot of day sailing in my 17 (MkI) and also a lot of sail camping, fitted out with a dodger and lately a rear gizmo that makes a tent from the mizzen mast forward.  I think it's great for both.  I unexpectedly had 8 people aboard one day for daysailing, but it worked great.  Great ballast on a breezy day.  More freuqently day sail with two ro three adults and some kids aboard.  Sailed part of the Everglades Challenge with a boat full of gear and one other guy aboard.  We were probably pretty heavy but, again, good ballast for a breezy run and I felt like we were moving well.  When I'm aboard by myself, it's a neat sailing dinghy and I need to remind myself to reef early.  Never sailed a 15, so nothing to compare there, I'm afraid.  But I'm a big fan of a 17 for lots of various uses.

[PadrePoint]

I will say that an aspect of my purchasing a full kit from B&B was the personal satisfaction of supporting a small business that supports some great people.  
AND, I found that every CNC cut piece fit correctly.  And, I appreciated having the FULL kit with all the parts needed (other than screws and bolts).  Having the FULL kit tremendously sped up the building process and it was the finished product I enjoy much more than the building part. 

[Paul356]

I built my 17 from Graham's kit and echo everything Padre says.

[jshaley]

Paul & Padre, yes - the kit certainly is the way to go. Makes the most sense/cents for most people. I have had a false start or two with boat building. One school of thought is get the kit and go all in. The other is nibble at it steadily and before you know it you are afloat. I love supporting small businesses.

Still waffling. The designs seem so close. I very much appreciate all of the feedback - looks like either choice is well supported by the community.

[Andy B]

If you do decide to build, take SteveW up on his offer.  I bought a (production) boat from him--he's a thoughtful builder, wicked smart, and is a really nice guy!

[Reacher]

Speed and accuracy are two good reasons to assemble a boat from a kit. That said, I prefer to build from plans, especially lofting and creating the large hull panels. It is satisfying to exercise your mind and imagination while contemplating a sheet of offsets.

 

The photo is from a sailing canoe project. A finish nail is tapped in at each offset mark, ready to support the long batten for marking the line. The left side of the panel has already been marked. If you look carefully at the second from last nail at the far end you can see that it is out of line. My error in marking the spot, but easily spotted and corrected before scribing.

 

If you build from plans you have to trust the designer and the specs provided. I saw a team do a major mess up on a boat build because they believed their scaling of the plans was better than the designer’s “error”. There was no error except theirs.

 

[Don Silsbe]

The other skill that must be learned with a scratch build is scarfing.  This isn’t difficult with the right tools.  And everyone has their favorite tools for this job.  A friend of mine even uses a belt sander!  I tried it, and it worked great.  You can get into trouble very quickly with it, though.

But all this is part of the fun.  To me, a kit is ideal for a first-time builder, as long as you don’t mind the additional expense.  Scratch builds are time consuming, but can be a good way to enjoy the process.  Either way, we’re all here for assistance.  Remember-  free advice is worth every penny you pay for it!  LOL