CS-20 MK1 # 36: "Gavia" Restoration

[Andy B]

12 hours ago, Don Silsbe said:

I removed the loops on the leech of my sails (at the reef points).  I plan to change to the modern slab reefing setup, once I get the centerboard taken care of.  I’ll probably go to the messabout with single reefs and peeling paint.  Time will tell.  I’ll keep you posted on my refurb. thread.

Don, if you are switching to the slab reefing, for the sail alteration is that as simple as putting in a heavy duty grommet?  Or do you have to reinforce the area with stitching?

[Reacher]

Don, why remove the loops at the reef points? I find them to be good for clipping on a reef line.

[Don Silsbe]

I like to minimize the amount of metal on my boats.  I like to think that the cringle at the reef point is sufficient for the purpose.  No clipping is necessary.  The only metal I intend to have on my sprits will be the cheek blocks for reefing, and the clam cleats.  Stay tuned to my refurb thread on this forum.  
 

By the way, I always reserve the right to be wrong.  What I like about wooden boats is the ability to try different things, using filler and paint to erase bad ideas.

[Andy B]

Centerboard Issues!

 

First, I noticed that one of the bolts securing the padeyes for the raising and lower mechanisms was loose (explanation:  On the part of the centerboard that sticks up as a lever to raise and lower, there are padeyes on both sides for blocks; on mine, these are on opposite sides of the lever so two bolts, each going completely through the lever, are used to hold the padeyes).  I had a pliers on board and went to tighten it, and the bolt broke off.  I removed the bolt at home.  I am thinking this is an area of high loads, so my plan is to drill out a larger hole, fill with epoxy, and then drill a new bolt hole.  While I'm at it I might as well do this for the hole for the other bolt holding the padeye.  I don't know if this is overkill--I know epoxy gives waterproofing, which might have been the culprit, though I doubt it in this area of the boat.  Does expoxy give better holding power here?

 

Second issue.  The centerboard is wiggly, meaning you can move it back and forth when it is up.  It also vibrates as certain speeds and points of sail.  However, when you lower it, it does stick a bit.  Then, under sail, it is very difficult to raise up.  I learned this as I was experimenting with raising the board a bit on a broad reach.  I think, but I'm not certain, that the board was tight because the slackness side to side lets the board get wedges on a slight diagonal as the boat is being pushed sideways.  Does this make sense as a cause?  And is there any danger here, seeing that it has been this way since the initial build 20 years ago? 

[Andy B]

I'm coming up with my project list for the winter--mostly deck refinishing and hardware.

 

What do you think of wood fairleads for the main lines (halyard, snotter, downhaul)?  Something like this, only made of wood, and epoxied to the deck>

 

[Peter HK]

 

Here is one I made years ago

The black holes were delrin rod - low friction and resistant to wear but in retrospect was probably overkill and I think epoxy coated wood would be fine

Cheers

Peter HK

 

 

[Andy B]

Peter, that’s exactly what I am thinking of. Looks good!

[Don Silsbe]

@Andy B—Some guys fill the holes with epoxy thickened with graphite powder, and drill it out.  Trick is getting a smooth radius on the exit.  I’ve used a router bit, chucked into a drill(press).

[Andy B]

I am gradually schooling myself on restoring and replacing finishes, and I have a question:  was it standard practice to epoxy the deck if you were not going to paint?  My boat was built 20 years ago if that makes a difference.

 

The fuller story is the entire topsides (hull, deck, interior) is finished bright.  The hull finish remains in decent condition; there are lots of peeling spots on the deck.  I had assumed the entire boat was epoxy coated; however, in an Off Center Harbor video they mentioned that they don't recommend an epoxy coat for most regular varnish conditions.  Thus I now suspect the deck was likely not coated with epoxy before being varnished.  If so, that might influence me to varnish instead of painting, which would involve epoxy work and then painting.

 

Is there any way to tell whether there is epoxy under the varnish?

And if the deck was not epoxied, and the hull above the waterline is also varnished, does that mean the hull was not coated with epoxy?  Is that bad?

 

Sorry for all the newbie questions, but I'm learning that the first step in restoring this is figuring out what I have.

[Reacher]

Andy, in the last 30 years that I’ve been paying attention to boat building it seems like the standard practice in plywood boats is to epoxy everything to seal and protect the wood. Varnish was done for quality of a bright finish and to give the epoxy some uv protection. I would assume that a stitch and glue boat would be coated with epoxy. A mahogany runabout probably not. I know CLC recommended epoxy over everything even if only the seams were taped.

 

So, I’d look at the seams where there must be epoxy over fiberglass tape. Does the finish, or the peeling look any different there than the rest of the deck or sides? Or use a heat gun to check. If it’s only varnish it should bubble up/scrape off to expose bare wood. 

 

 

[Don Silsbe]

Here’s my long answer on the subject.  There are two schools of thought on the subject, regarding the use of an epoxy seal coat under varnish.

 

First, most builders of stitch and glue boats coat all wooden surfaces with three coats of epoxy*.  This is the W.E.S.T. (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique) system.  When used on brightwork, it provides a solid seal for the wood.  It also fills in grainy grooves, providing a smooth surface for the varnish or paint.  Since all strip-built canoes and kayaks are fiberglassed inside and out, the varnish is laid on too of fiberglass on every one of them.  Reacher is right.  Epoxy degrades with UV exposure.  If the surface is going to be bright, it needs several coats of varnish containing UV filters.

 

Some builders are vehemently opposed to putting epoxy between wood and varnish.  The reason is this.  When you go to refinish the brightwork (every 10 years is the tradition), you usually take it down to the bare wood, and build up your coats from there.  Having a thick layer of goo (epoxy) in between makes the job very difficult.  
 

I take a twofold approach.  On plywood or strip-built surfaces (see photo), I varnish over epoxy.  On solid brightwork like tillers and rub rails, I omit the epoxy layer.  If memory serves me correctly, I epoxy coated the rub rails on Local Honey.  Not sure about the thwarts.  Regardless, maintenance coats always got a light sanding with 220, 320, and/or a bronze Scotch-Brite pad, followed by 2 coats of Petit Captains Varnish. (With a scuff from the Scotch-Brite pad in between.  I never took it down to bare wood.  Didn’t see a good reason to do this.

 

* The exception to this is Dynamite Payson, the pioneer of stitch and glue techniques.  He only used epoxy on taped seams.  The rest got two coats of primer and two coats of finish.  But that was eons ago.

[Don Silsbe]

I’m thinking about your situation.  The main question is this— are there areas of the finish which are down to bare wood?  If so, and they’re going to be painted, just give the area three coats of epoxy and paint over it.  If it’s going to remain bright, I’d use the Reacher Heat Gun Method to remove varnish from a good margin.  If there is epoxy in the mix, give it three coats of goo, sand to feather it is, and varnish away.  If there's no bare wood showing, paint and/or varnish away!
 

Everyone will do something different, but this is what I would do.

[Andy B]

Thanks all.  I was assuming there was epoxy there, and if so was going to paint, for the reasons stated by Don (having to remove or deal with the epoxy layer, now uneven at best, before varnishing).  However, starting to think there is bare wood there, I may scrape all the varnish and go with varnish over bare wood.  Keep in mind this is the deck, which on my boat is going to see water maybe 10 times per year.  It is shaded the rest of the year.

 

I like the heat gun idea.  If I am scraping off all varnish, I will finish bright, no varnish.  If there is a layer of epoxy under there, I will recoat and paint over it.

 

I can't start this work until after Halloween, so I am really hoping to find a warm-ish garage I can work in over the winter.  If not it's going to be a lot of work in the spring!

[Hirilonde]

I never epoxy wood (just plywood).  I can think of nothing to gain doing so. I did epoxy the Sapelle plywood deck and transom of my Lapwing before varnish, but not so sure it really helps any. if the varnish is not kept up, the UV will get to the epoxy and yellow it.  Repairing this really sucks.

[Andy B]

13 minutes ago, Hirilonde said:

I never epoxy wood (just plywood).  I can think of nothing to gain doing so. I did epoxy the Sapelle plywood deck and transom of my Lapwing before varnish, but not so sure it really helps any. if the varnish is not kept up, the UV will get to the epoxy and yellow it.  Repairing this really sucks.

so if I'm understanding, if you did it again, you wouldn't epoxy the decks even if they are plywood?  Because either way you have to keep the varnish up, and the epoxy isn't helping with that?

 

[Hirilonde]

44 minutes ago, Andy B said:

so if I'm understanding, if you did it again, you wouldn't epoxy the decks even if they are plywood?  Because either way you have to keep the varnish up, and the epoxy isn't helping with that?

 

I don't think I would epoxy.  I have a small yellowed spot on my transom of epoxy.  I am afraid to try and sand it off as I might go through the outer veneer and totally ruin my transom.

[Don Silsbe]

Let’s get back to that deck fairlead topic.  Yesterday, I noticed excessive wear on my plastic, non-bushed deck fairleads.  I’ll flip this bad one around for the Messabout, but will replace it afterward with these.  The stainless bushing will make all the difference.

https://defender.com/en_us/spinlock-triple-bulls-eye-for-leading-lines-be10-3 

 

[Paul356]

I epoxied all my wood, both ply and dimension.  Then I varnished it all.  It looks very nice and holds up well.  I put on a new coat of varnish every year or two on the decks and transom, but not that often on the seats.  I do a very light light sanding first, with 220 or 320.  It doesn't bother me to do that varnishing, but that's me.  I feel that it holds up better than it would with just varnish.  I did this also on one of my big boats and had the same result:  looked good and held up better than just varnish.

[Hirilonde]

4 hours ago, Paul356 said:

  I did this also on one of my big boats and had the same result:  looked good and held up better than just varnish.

No it didn't. Your varnish protected the epoxy.  And if you had let the varnish go, you would have had damaged epoxy.  The epoxy would be far more work to repair than varnish.

[Paul356]

Ah, but I didn't let the varnish go.