Sailing with the main in the center or single step position

[sitearch]

Hey all,

It has been awhile since I posted but I love reading all of yours for sure. I have a question that you more experienced CS sailors can answer. How has it been to sail with the main stepped in the single or third mast position? Even with sail tracks on both the main and mizzen I am a little frustrated with trying to reef the main when I am single handling my CS. We get big blows pretty quickly here in Alaska and I think it might be nice to sail her with just the single mast. I have many times furled the main completely and gone on with just the mizzen but in the typical position.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Thank you all. We have had a rainy Summer here in Anchorage so our sailing days in the bays have been somewhat restricted. Ugh...darn...rain. Hoping for a better Fall.

Regards to you all,

Bob

Alaska CS #199

First Attempt

[Docpal]

Hey all,

It has been awhile since I posted but I love reading all of yours for sure. I have a question that you more experienced CS sailors can answer. How has it been to sail with the main stepped in the single or third mast position? Even with sail tracks on both the main and mizzen I am a little frustrated with trying to reef the main when I am single handling my CS. We get big blows pretty quickly here in Alaska and I think it might be nice to sail her with just the single mast. I have many times furled the main completely and gone on with just the mizzen but in the typical position.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Thank you all. We have had a rainy Summer here in Anchorage so our sailing days in the bays have been somewhat restricted. Ugh...darn...rain. Hoping for a better Fall.

Regards to you all,

Bob

Alaska CS #199

First Attempt

Bob,

Would you have any pictures you could upload which show how you have arranged your main sheet aft of the cabin? Thanks !

[wkisting]

I didn't install the third mast step, so I can't answer your question directly. But regarding your reefing issues with the main: Have you tried any of the various jiffy reefing options others have devised? That might ease the process enough to retain the two sails instead of swapping to one. I like the ketch sailing qualities so well, I think that would be my preference.

I think something like a properly positioned cheek block and cleat on the sprit, with a line running up to the reef clew would be a quick way to take in a reef on the main. Maybe? I haven't tried it myself yet, but have given it some thought. Of course, your cabin may make reefing harder on yours than we've found it to be on our (open) CS20.

[sitearch]

I think you are right. My cabin makes it a bit harder. That may really be the bigger issue. I will consider a block on the sprit.

As far as a picture of the boat with single mast I haven't tried it yet. Kind of nervous about it even though I know Graham designed her for it.

Just wondering if anyone had sailed with the single set up. I saw the picture of one in Australia sailing with the mizzen in the center step and the main completely furled. She seemed to be making way fairly nicely.

I appreciate all of your thoughts in any case.

I am still learning so much, but then maybe that is what I love about this stuff...you are always learning...

Bob

[PeterP]

Bob, I sailed my CS17 with the mizzen in the middle, with main furled. I have a set of reefs in my sails but no good/easy way of reducing sail. I try not to be out when it is uncomfortable but you always end up getting caught sooner or later. So I rolled up the main and moved the mizzen up forward as the quickest way to reduce sail area. It worked fine - the furled main was creating some dirty air but I remember thinking Hey this isn't bad at all. Having the mainmast standing leaves the cockpit free of clutter and that is a plus in my estimation. Perhaps doubly so when things are rocking and rolling and you need to reduce sail by 60%.Boat felt amazingly well balanced but in all honesty I was thinking more along the lines of Where the heck are the brakes on this thing rather than How is my laminar flow. PeterP

[sitearch]

Thank you Peter, that is what I wanted to know. I love the ketch rig but sometimes I just seem to get into big blows too quickly and one sail would be the best. I am so glad to hear that she did okay with the center step. I had to laugh when you said to be honest you were looking for the brakes...I too have felt that same way. Anyway thanks for the infor. Have a great day and happy sailing...

Bob

Alaska CS #199

[Gordy Hill]

Bob,

Like Peter, I've often rolled up the main and put the mizzen in the center hole. One should really strike the mizzen before repositioning it, but I was always too lazy and just picked up the whole rig and put it in the other hole. Looked kinda like a rodeo event...

If the wind's a bit brisk, just leave the mizzen home. You'll be giving up far less performance than you might imagine.

[sitearch]

Bob,

Like Peter, I've often rolled up the main and put the mizzen in the center hole. One should really strike the mizzen before repositioning it, but I was always too lazy and just picked up the whole rig and put it in the other hole. Looked kinda like a rodeo event...

If the wind's a bit brisk, just leave the mizzen home. You'll be giving up far less performance than you might imagine.

Thanks Gordy. That was my next question, if I could just leave the mizzen home when I know I will be for a good blow out on Resurrection Bay in Seward. I got caught two weeks ago in a 5 foot sea...and it was like a rodeo...Haha..

Thanks for the comment.

Bob

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Mostly the reefing step position is to set the boat up that way form the git go as opposed to changing underrway to that point.

In that event it is easy enough to reef down both sails before heading out from the git go and still have the benefits of the two sails and the cat ketch rig.

[Peter HK]

I'll throw in my 2c worth.

I didn't put in the third mast position when building as I intended from the beginning to have an effective reefing system. I can easily reef my main from the cockpit. Here in Australia we also quite often have strong breezes so I asked the sailmaker to put in 2 reefs in each sail. From his computer my total sail area is 139 sq ft- 76 in the main and 63 in the mizzen. With 2 reefs in each sail these figures are 34 sq ft and 28 sq ft respectively for a total of 62 sq ft ie just less than the full mizzen area.

The big difference however is that the centre of effort of the double reefed cat ketch is nearly 2 ft lower than the same area in the full mizzen...this means the same drive with significantly less heeling force. I feel this is a better arrangement, especially as with the cat ketch rig you can still heave to and drive the boat through tacks if the waves are making that difficult.

Of course if running downwind in a gale then the mizzen can be dropped and that leaves only the double reefed main. Bare poles is the last resort

Cheers

Peter HK

[Docpal]

I think you are right. My cabin makes it a bit harder. That may really be the bigger issue. I will consider a block on the sprit.

As far as a picture of the boat with single mast I haven't tried it yet. Kind of nervous about it even though I know Graham designed her for it.

Just wondering if anyone had sailed with the single set up. I saw the picture of one in Australia sailing with the mizzen in the center step and the main completely furled. She seemed to be making way fairly nicely.

I appreciate all of your thoughts in any case.

I am still learning so much, but then maybe that is what I love about this stuff...you are always learning...

Bob

Bob,

I'm more curious to see pix of the current sheeting arrangement with both masts in their standard positions. I too am adding a cabin, and I'm in the middle of trying out some different sheeting positions...

[Randy Jones]

Another consideration is that with the mast in the 3rd position the end of the boom sweeps across the cockpit (CS17). I learned this by hitting myself in the eye with the end of the boom. I'm adding second reefs and will stay in cat ketch mode.

Randy

[sitearch]

Hi All,

Good replies from everyone. Sometimes I think we defend something just because it is clever or loyal to do so. Even Graham has admitted that a different rig than the ketch can be used. Let us all not forget that he designed the CS with the third or center step. I don't think he did that for nothing.

It is best to have the ketch rig of course, but as I said before even with sail tracks and reefs in place it is often difficult to get er all done solo in a big blow. I will try the main in the center step for kicks this week and give a report.

Regarding the question on how do I have the sheet arrangement for the main and mizzen, it is just the way Graham has it designed. I haven't changed anything from that.

I am truly appreciative for all the comments and opinions. As a fairly new sailor I learn much always from all of you.

Bob

CS #199

First Attempt

[cprinos]

I don't know if this helps with your rigging question, but there's a pic from this year's small reach regatta:

https://picasaweb.go...898592647443634

If you use the magnifying glass + tool, you can enlarge this picture and make out some of the rigging details. It looks like the sheets were led just the same as if the mizzen was in the rear step.

chris

(gallery courtesy GIS Amateur Style Blog http://gisamateur.bl...gatta-2011.html )

[sitearch]

Yes, that is it. Thank you so much. Chris. That is just what I was thinking. This helps a lot.

I also appreciate your post in response to my additional topic or question. I think you are right about the stays.

Appreciate it very much.

Bob

Alaska

[sitearch]

Here is the sketch as promised of my CS 17 plus 3, First Attempt under the main only in the center step and with a small non overlapping self tending jib kind of like the staysail Graham sails with. This is promising for me since I have the cuddy.

Excuse the drawing, it is a little rough...

Bob

CS #199

Alaska

[hokeyhydro]

I think the center step might come in handy to drop the mizzen mast in when in row that boat mode. Get the mast out of the way of the seat where one sits to row.

[sitearch]

Yes, I agree and don't get me wrong anyone. I love the ketch rig ( I don't want Graham to never speak to me again--he is already upset with me for modifying his sweet CS design to meet my needs here in Alaska like adding a cuddy, an interior motor well, a larger motor and extending the LWL by 2.5 feet ), but the way we use our boat which is unorthodox from most of you folks like fishing from the bow, motoring around in some shallow bays and sleeping while anchored up in quiet coves out of the rain in the cuddy-- it will be nice to get the mizzen out of the cockpit area and truthfully the main aft so we can use the bow more freely as well as the cockpit to fish etc from.

I have crunched the numbers and using the center step where Graham designed it I will be able to increas the main to around 80 sf in area and still have 10" lead to the center of lateral resistance. I can use the main in the center step without any shrouds, stays and without a jib which will still afford lazy sailing. I can also jump up and reef my main from the cockpit without having to perform circus or rodeo feats to bring her down when a big blow comes. I think I will be able to get up to 6 or 7 knots with this rig. We will see.

Thanks for the comments.

Bob

CS#199 First Attempt

Alaska

[sitearch]

I just read my last post and I can't wait for Ray to tell me where I am wrong. What he really will want to tell me is that really I need a small pocket yacht instead of a small rocket like the CS and he will be right but I chose to build the CS 4 years ago as it was my first build of a boat of any kind and I am happy with it even if we do use it in a way it wasn't really designed for. One of these days maybe I will get the time and energy to build the Princess which is what I should have done in the first place. Live and learn I guess.

No offense Ray.

Bob

[wwbaginski]

After my this year experirnce (including heavy weather tests of 1 mast rig) I will keep 2 mast rig until one of them is broken or one sail is lost or so. It was at wind and seas of Force 4, and one sail had just no enough power to drive the boat through waves. The trick is to keep 2 sails working but have more load. Another day in Force 4 we have had an efficient upwind sailing fast with 2 sails (reefed on the beginning, and unreefed once we faced waves ) and 5 onboard. Here is 3-piece video from this year Raid Finland:

This year raid was especially worth towing the boat 1000 km from and another 1000 km back to Poland, to sail 50 nm and face all kinds of weather and enjoy open sea archipelago Kotka. Beyond, 3 B&B related skippers have met there: Ralf of Munich, Germany who sails BRS15, Brian of Maryland who owns CS17 plans and me of Warsaw (BRS 17). Thanks for that cool meeting guys!