Moccasin 12

[slaterturf]

Wow, here are some interesting pictures of a cavity I discovered between the bottom and the doubler.  I found it because I could not get one of the plastic tie holes to fill in with epoxy.  As I probe around the hole a little it seemed to continue beyond the hole itself between the bottom and doubler.  I used a chisel to open up the bottom and it just continued and continued.  By the time I got to some hardened epoxy between the doubler and the bottom, I had excavated a cavity 18 inches long and 1.5 inches at its widest point!

I am glad I found it.  I don't think I had enough epoxy, nor thick enough epoxy between the doubler and the bottom when I glued that down.  I think the thin epoxy may have flowed back towards the low points and thus left the cavity on the higher side.  The inside is filleted and taped.  

I will mix up some thick epoxy and use that to fill it in here and then tape over that.  I wonder if I should not cut a piece of the 4 mm plywood to the shape of the excavated cavity and piece it in.  That actually seems to be better than simply filling the whole cavity with epoxy.

Here are some of the photos.  This one shows the initial excavation to the left of the cavity.

[slaterturf]

There may be others around the bottom of the boat.  However I don't have any evidence as I did with this location. 

[John Burritt]

You're on the right track filling the void(s) w/ plywood and lots of thickened epoxy.  You may find some more along the doubler when you round over the outside of the chine before you tape it. 

[slaterturf]

[John Burritt]

The patches look good.  Now fair and tape the outside of the chine.

If you've glassed both sides of the midship joint, it should be fine.  A butt block on the inside is just an alternative to glassing the joint.

Move "washing off the amine blush" up on the do list.  If you do this prior to any epoxy sanding, it will minimize clogged sandpaper.

Choosing a paint to use is a dilemma.  Its a balance between the finish you want, cost, aerosol safety concerns (read the warnings on the cans) and how hard you want to work.  An epoxy primer probably is a constant in the process - something to bridge between the epoxy coating and the paint you choose.  Try to do your fairing & sanding before you start priming.  Its amazing what shows up w/ the first coat of primer.

[slaterturf]

Well, it has been a while since I have visited.  I am still gaining ground on my canoe.  Here is a photo of how I created a decent looking bow at the end of the gunwales.  My two gunwales did not come together very successfully.  I was able to take one of those plastic stir sticks I got from JD Distributors, wrap it around, secured it with screws, and back filled it with thickened epoxy.  The epoxy hardened, I removed the plastic backing, and I have a decent bow.  I did the same with the stern.

[Hirilonde]

Not all epoxies even create an amine blush.  It appears as an oily layer that may not be overly visible, but is very noticeable to the touch.  It should be removed every time you let the epoxy cure and will be adding a layer of anything else, including another layer of epoxy.  It can be removed with water alone.  This may seem counter-intuitive as it feels like oil, but water is really all it takes.

[Ken_Potts]

  Another thing you can do when coating a surface multiple times is apply the new coat before the old coat is fully cured.  You don't have to sand or wash it if it is still a little tacky, and the polymers in the new coat will cross-link with the polymers in the old coat (or something like that).

  At one point I was so used to re-coating epoxy when it was still a little tacky that I made the mistake of putting a new coat of oil-based paint over a previous coat of paint that wasn't quite cured.  That is a no-no - Ugly paint job - I tell people it's non-skid.  :cool:

[Dogdad]

Special preparation for various materials

Cured epoxy- Unless you're using WEST SYSTEM's blush-free 207 Special Clear Hardener, amine blush may appear as a wax-like film on cured epoxy surfaces. It is a by-product of the curing process and may be more noticeable in cool, moist conditions. Amine blush can clog sandpaper and inhibit subsequent bonding, but this inert substance can easily be removed.

To remove the blush, wash the surface with clean water (not solvent) and an abrasive pad, such as Scotch-brite 7447 General Purpose Hand Pads. Dry the surface with paper towels to remove the dissolved blush before it dries on the surface. Sand any remaining glossy areas with 80-grit sandpaper. Wet-sanding will also remove the amine blush. If a release fabric is applied over the surface of fresh epoxy, amine blush will be removed when the release fabric is peeled from the cured epoxy and no additional sanding is required.

Epoxy surfaces that have not fully cured may be bonded to or coated with epoxy without washing or sanding. Before applying coatings other than epoxy (paints, bottom paints, varnishes, gelcoats, etc.), allow epoxy surfaces to cure fully, then wash and sand.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/surface-preparation/

[slaterturf]

I am still at the task of completing my canoe.  I have primed the canoe one time and it is now awaiting sanding.  I am deliberating one more primer coat.  Then I am on to painting.

I have come to the conclusion that I want to install a canoe seat.  I had planned to kneel on the floor and paddle from that position.  I intend to paddle with a canoe paddle rather than a kayak paddle.  After considering the comfort of sitting on a canoe seat vs. kneeling on my banged up legs with one sprained ankle and another banged up knee, I decided it will be much nicer sit on a seat.

I would like to install a seat like this.  .... My photo here is to large... It is simply a photo of a cane seat in a moccasin canoe...  It will be in the center of the boat.  There will only be one seat.   I think I read somewhere that these seats can be purchased for installation.  Actually, I just found a place when I googled caned canoe seats.

Can anyone point to guidance or plans regarding installation?  I have looked at the photos that came with the Moccasin.  That is where the photo above came from.  There is a plan page in the Moccasin plans for a seat, however, I have not quite figured how to read it.  If these seats are sold, I thought I might just buy one and install it.  

What I am trying to understand is the installation.  It appears in the photo that the seats hang from the inwale.  Is that right?  Would that not just tear out when I sit 191 pounds down on the seat?

Thanks for any help and guidance. This photo did not work either.[attachment=1]

[slaterturf]

[Gordy Hill]

Sit on the floor, kayak style. The boat will be much more stable. That's not to say it'l be stable. It's a small boat and your 191 pounds will pretty much use it up. There are kayak seat pads with an attached back that can be attached to the inwales.

If you use the canoe seat, don't launch where people can watch you....

[slaterturf]

Thanks Gordy, but I want to sit on a seat.  I have canoed a lot and have no concern that I can operate the Moccasin canoe from a seat.  I am just thinking through how to make a seat work.  I have walnut breasthooks because I have some walnut lumber laid up and it is dry.  I wonder if I cannot produce a walnut bench type seat.

I have seen the seats in a canoe and in photos of a canoe where they appear to hang off the inwales.  However, I have not looked closely and now I am thinking through how to install such a seat. 

I am wondering if the seat should be centered or set towards the stern a little.  It seems to me that where the seat is positioned will affect how the boat sits in the water once a paddler settles down onto the seat. 

If I were to install a bench seat, it would have to be very stiff in order to support a person or else it might need a support under the seat.  I would rather not have a support under the seat if I can figure out how to design it.

[Ken_Potts]

  I've seen lots of seats that hang under the inwhales like you describe, but I can't remember the models or even the makes of the boats.  It's accomplished by drilling the inwhale (somewhat) vertically for the long mounting screws and using spacers to drop the seat down into the correct seating position in the boat.  You might try deciding on the correct height for the seat, then cutting the supports so the seat sits in the right spot in the boat.  If you can temporarily support the seat in position you'll be able to see the angles to drill the bolt holes in the inwhales and the seat supports.  After that you'll need to cut the tubular spacers at the correct lengths and angles.

  This may not be the greatest way to do it because you run the risk of drilling something other than the ideal angle in the inwhales and you'll have to tinker to get the spacers right.  The spacers can be anything from turned wood pieces to sections of pipe.

  If my description of this stuff isn't clear, you can try looking around at canoe shops and you might see some examples of seats hanging from the inwhales.

  As far as fore-and-aft position goes, I'm probably going to be of even less help.  If the Mocassin is intended for paddling while kneeling you should shift the backrest aft very slightly (maybe an inch?) in order to accommodate the different position of your lower legs.  If you can't move the backrest position you can probably account for the weight shift by putting your lunch bag behind you rather than in front of you.  I think the center of mass of a seated kayaker is probably real close to the belly button - If that is correct (which it probably isn't) you just have to correct for the placement of your lower legs.

  If you're unsure (like me) it might be a good plan to test paddle the boat with just a cushion on the bottom of the boat and once you've found the correct position fore-and-aft you'll be able to add the seat with confidence.  Alternatively, you can install the seat hanging under the inwhales adn then fill and re-drill the holes if you need to move the seat.

  Sorry - I wasn't very helpful there, was I?

[slaterturf]

Ken, Thank you for your thoughts.  They were helpful.  For me this is an example of the continuing fun and learning about boat building.  I had not thought about a seat when I started building the boat.  The plans have a page for a seat, but I have not deciphered them yet.  I think the plan is for a seat back more than a seat.  I may have to give Graham a call. 

As I have thought about the seat overnight, it seems I would need some side support along the inside of the cockpit to hold up the seat with a person sitting on it.  I am comparing the pros and cons of a traditional cane seat and what I call a "bench" seat, which would be a solid piece of walnut. 

Thanks.

[Gordy Hill]

You might wait until you've tried the boat. Just throw in a boat cushion, move it around a bit  and  see what works best for yuou. On one moccasin I used a plastic boat seat with  a  folding back and never got around to really attching it. My friend still loves it just the  way it is. In the other on I built a seat out of okoume and bits of walnut. It's very important to keep the weight low...honest.

[slaterturf]

Yes, trying it out without a seat in place is coming to me as the best way to proceed.  That is exciting as I will get to put my boat in the water all the sooner.  I agree with you and understand the importance of keeping my weight low.  With a seat I will be able to move my weight vertically (somewhat) as I choose.  Forward and aft is a more difficult and hence the discussion.  I like the thought of a movable (fore and aft) bench seat.  I have to think that through more.  I am just going to finish the painting and launch her.

Thanks.

[bfeller]

On mounted two blocks on the inside of the canoe mounting the seat frames on top.  My build sheets had the measurements included. 

[slaterturf]

[Hirilonde]

Woohoo, in the water and looking good.

 I have not put a seat in as you can see.  I may simply create butt bar which could double as a portage shoulder cross bar for carrying down to the pond.

You meant  a thwart? 

My canoe has cane seats, but I paddle kneeling using them as a "butt bar".  A carrying yoke is very handy.  I would definitely consider what you posted.