CS 15 vs 17

[Hirilonde]

A friend even uses a belt sander?

 

I do it with a hand plane and a belt sander!

[jshaley]

So one of the leading attractions to the Core Sound line for me is speed. Not racing, but rather the ability to cover ground while cruising. I've read some of the accounts about the Everglades Challenge so the Core Sound can exceed my personal needs.

I know the 20 is faster than the 17, and expect the 17 is faster than the 15. Can someone share approximately what we are talking about? If I choose 17 over 15 in addition to space and weatherliness what can I expect in speed differences? 

Sorry - I should have included this earlier: I live in upstate NY and have ready access to small lakes, several canal systems which connect some of those lakes and Lake Ontario which I would consider coastal sailing. I have canoe camped Georgian Bay off of Lake Huron and have enjoyed sailing Lake Champlain. I am looking for a robust trailer sailor under 1k lbs (1750 towing limit). Docile enough for my non-sailing wife to enjoy daysailing and sturdy enough for my own multi day trips. I have boat camped out of a canoe, paddleboard and Shellback so am fine w/ rustic accommodations. I have gear to camp on shore but am also looking for onboard. Primarily sailing but would be good to be able to row/paddle and take a small motor (possibly electric)

Other designs I am looking at: SCAMP (too slow?), Hitia 17 (too wet?), Walkabout (no motor), Navigator, Seil 17, W17 trimaran (Long set up), Oz Goose

[Reacher]

My recommendation is the CS 17 based on your intended uses. Disclaimer: I have not seen the 15 or sailed either the 15 or 17. But I have seen a 17 along side a CS 20 and was surprised at how much larger the 20 is in volume, and expect the 17 to be substantially bigger than the 15. 

 

Of the other boats you are considering I can only comment on the Scamp. For a couple of months I saw one under construction along side a CS 20 I was working on. It seemed to me to be a tough build in comparison to the 20. Quite a few are begun at Scamp camps where you come home with a bare hull, and many don't progress beyond that point. Builders who complete them do like them for their ease of use and seaworthiness. If you want to go that route you might seek out a completed hull and start from there.

[Don Silsbe]

@Reacher— I agree with you regarding size.  I loved my 15, but there is so much more space on this 17 I’m working on.  I’m happy I made the move.

@Hirilonde— I used a belt sander for the first time on my last build.  I was amazed.  It is on my scarfing tool list forever.

@jshaley— When my bride sailed on my BRS 15 for the first time, she told me that it was the best boat we ever had.  This is because there was no boom to duck under.  Another factor was that there was no jib requiring her attention.  This is her preferred sailing posture.  (I made a platform for her to lounge on.)

 

Scamps are cute little boats, and very capable for their size.  What I don’t like is that the cabin is basically useless— you can’t sleep in it, so what’s it for?  Wellsford says that it’s “for having tea”. (!!!)

Plus, they are slow.   I was cruising with a friend who has one.  We were motoring down a long channel.  I was on a (heavily loaded) Core Sound 17 mk3, and he was in his Scamp.  I was using a Honda 5, and he a Suzuki 2.5.  I literally sailed a circle around him!  He was at full throttle, and I was at half throttle.  Core Sounds are slippery devils. (Sorry for the unrotated photo.)

[Paul356]

I've sailed a couple of trips in company with a Scamp.  I agree the Scamp is quite slow compared to the CS.  It is also fairly complicated to build, especially compared to the CS boats.  A couple of folks from a large a reputable kit-making concern that will otherwise go unnamed stopped by our volunteer shop and saw the Scamp that is underconstruction there, and has been for quite some time.  One of them said, "All that work, and still all you have is a Scamp."  I agree (and agree with similar comments above).

 

I, too, have been attracted by videos of some of the other Welsford boats but those, too, seem like bigger contrustion projects than a CS.  But I think all the added features probably make them very seaworthy.

 

Attributes of the Scamp, at least as I understand them from the companion mentioned above:  It has the little cuddy that helps make the cockpit into a snug one-person sleeping area, if you have right tent.  It will chug on through anything, albeit at it's own pace.  I have seen it recover from a capsize, and it was very quick and essentially dry, done by one person.  A capsize in a CS is a different matter, speaking unfortunately from experience.

 

The one time the Scamp really clobbered me was in a pretty fresh breeze, probably sustained >20 with higher gusts, and waves 1-2 feet, maybe a bit higher.  My friend in the Scamp put in a reef and went plugging to windward without another care.  I could not get to wind!  I had put double reefs in both sails, and wasn't sailing the 17 very well, I decided later (too much luffing, not enough holding course).  I think I would have been better off with a single-reefed mizzen in that breeze, sheeted in sort of half way.  I talked to Graham later and got some tips.  I think I will do much better next time.  But that Scamp kept on plugging.

 

My friend in the Scamp is looking at a Longsteps as his next build, so he's sold on the Scamp ideas, but would like something with a longer waterline and more speed.

 

Wow, that came outlonger than I expected.

[Designer]

I decided to jump into this discussion. Even though the advise has been excellent,  I have sailed all of the boats under discussion probably more than anyone and in hard conditions. I have even sailed a Scamp with  John Welsford as my crew.

 

I was probably responsible for the pictures of the CS15 with lots of heel. When Alan brought the CS15 he built to our messabout, I saw him tacking in some gusty conditions. I videoed and shot stills of him heeling her way over. I then took her out and flogged her hard. There  were quite a few pictures taken of that sail. I wondered when I saw them uploaded if they would have a negative effect.  On the following Sunday after most of he boats had gone home  I had the three fifteen footers I had designed BRS15, Lapwing and the CS15 sitting at the dock. The first thing was to test their stability. The CS15 was clearly the most stable with the Lapwing second. None of this was a surprise as that was what the original static calculations showed but it was good to check them as-built. Next we tested them under sail. The BRS with her smaller rig was the slowest. The other two have identical rigs which is a fairer comparison. I ended up judging them even overall but thought that  the Lapwing had a slight edge in light air, it was the reverse in heavier air. When CS15 hull #1 was built, the owner left her with me for a week so that I could give her a thorough test. I was well pleased with her when I handed her over. When I designed the Lapwing I just put her hull under the CS15 rig. (Don, was that your BRS?)

 

Is the CS15 tender? Definitely not. She does have a good size rig and should be reefed appropriately.

 

You said it best.  "So one of the leading attractions to the Core Sound line for me is speed. Not racing, but rather the ability to cover ground while cruising. I've read some of the accounts about the Everglades Challenge so the Core Sound can exceed my personal needs."

It has always amazed me how the miles just seem to roll on by with the CS17.

 

While the CS15 is not a tender boat, the bigger footprint of the CS17 makes her a lot more stable.

 

There is no problem building from plans. As we ever update and improve the kits Alan has done a good job of keeping the plans up to date. The gear chine was a great improvement. I introduced it because I was always fussing at the chine trying to get it perfectly fair. Because of the transition of the chine joint starting as a butt joint transitioning to an overlap at about 20% aft, you were never sure how fair you got it until it was cured and cleaned up. The gear chine eliminated that issue. All you have to do draw up the chine ties tight and it is fair. Thousands of folded boats were made with out the teeth and thousands more will be built without it. I never will do it with out it. I can still recall when I put it first on a CS17 how perfectly it worked. Every time I went into the shop until it left I scan the chine and enjoy how fair it was.

 

If I was in your position I would probably go with the 17mk1. It would easily fit under your weight limit. I dragged Carlita around 10,000 miles one year mostly behind a 1.9 liter VW including both ways over the Rockies. She is a lot heavier than a 17mk1.

 

Whatever boat you choose, put on a masthead float. The tendency of all open boats is to invert after a capsize. 

 

When Charlie Brown asked Snoopy while fishing "what is the secret to life?" Snoopy replied "reef early and reef often."

[Paul356]

It's so great to read Graham's notes.

I had an additional thought about my upwind day vs the Scamp.  I finally just dropped the sails and kicked on the 2.5. Suzuki outboard.  The 17 went dead upwind like a champ, and really a pretty dry ride.  I was amazed at how easy the progress was.  I don't want js thinking he'll get stuck downwind on a blustery day.  

I also had a chance to try Graham's tips later, on an equally blustery day, but without the waves.  Worked swell.  One thing I learned was not to try to point the usual 45 or 50 degrees off the wind, 55 or so is fine and still gets you up wind.

[jshaley]

So my instinct is to pull the trigger on the CS17.1 after Graham's response, which is really icing on the cake of all of the other positive feedback (I really like icing). His note and Don's sundeck photo have really resolved any concerns about the CS15 being too lively. 

Turns out Steve W lives one town over and has graciously invited me to stop in, talk boats, and get a look at his CS20.3 Skeena - which I greatly admire. 

[Andy B]

Good decision.  I was about to chime in after you mentioned where you sail.  As you know, the Great Lakes have smaller waves, but they are steeper and come faster--not swells.  For a non-ballast boat, these waves can come slapping at you and steal all your momentum.  Worse, the pauses make it hard to set sails consistently.  I think the extra two feet will really smooth out your ride in these conditions. 

[Don Silsbe]

@Designer— Yes, Graham, I do believe it was my BRS15.

[JJVir]

How is the CS 17 build coming?

[jshaley]

JJVir,

Thank you for the follow-up. My next step is checking out Skeena, a local CS20.3. Seeing a CS17 in person I am a bit intimidated by the size. I want the boat to be stored in the garage so the CS15 is edging it out a bit. 

Either seems a big build and I also am considering a smaller design to ensure the "building" is as satisfying as the "sailing." Still "cutting bait" instead of fishing but looking forward to sailing existing Shellback. 
 

[Don Silsbe]

The 15 is a great boat, but she’s a little tight for sleeping aboard.  I must say that @PadrePoint has a tent that he has pitched on his 15.  He’s about 6’-2”, too! Maybe he’ll share a photo here of his tent setup.

[PadrePoint]

On 3/22/2025 at 7:42 PM, Don Silsbe said:

Maybe he’ll share a photo

I found a $29 Amazon tent with the door on the “side” that I could aim to the bow. 
I built a platform to fill the cockpit with an “egg crate” support. Yes, I’m 6’5”. This has worked successfully for me. 

[Steve W]

Having the tent at the stern is nice. Both my old SeaPearl (now Andy B's, mid cockpit tent) and Skeena (with her forward trunk cabin) hunt around at anchor in a breeze.