CS15 with a lug yawl rig

[Designer]

Bob,

 

I would like to add my congratulations also. You are going have a lot of fun with that boat. I hope to get to try her out one day.

 

I am with Ken, do not give up on the bailer. When the spray is flying you will appreciate it, there is nothing like the sound of the bailer sucking air as you are hiking out and going fast on a fresh day telling you that the boat is empty. Beside sailing, I always open the bailer on long road trips. I have driven through torrential rain and it is comforting to know that the boat is not getting damaged by  that sudden gain in weight.

[Steve W]

Congratulations. Sailing a boat you built yourself is pretty amazing!

 

 

 

 

[alexscott]

Meester,

After a couple months use, do you have any comments on the rig? Any pictures?

[meester]

Hi Alex,

 

I'm happy with the lug rig.   It points well and I haven't experienced the death roll downwind that a few posted concerns about.  I was out near Kent Island in 15 kt winds a couple of weekends ago with two reefs tucked in.   Wife and I were kicking up spray and grinning.  

 

I just replaced my yard with something beefier.  The old one was 1.5" diameter max at about 1/3 the length, with tapers.  I realized that by the time I had enough downhaul to smooth out the creases, the upper triangle of the sail was dead flat.  The new one is 2" diameter and it's much stiffer.  I just rigged it today, and it looks much better, but I havent tested it yet.

 

I think the main drawback is that when people ask what kind of boat it is, it's a long answer.   Hey Graham and Alan - can I just say it's a Core Sound?  

 

Here are a couple of pictures from 1st launch day.   I thought I had posted them earlier -- sorry!

[alexscott]

Very good looking, especially the home made sails. GIR, a Goat Island Skiff, has done 2 or 3 Texas 200's which involve a lot of running downwind in heavy air and no one has mentioned death rolls. See:

https://www.storerboatplans.com/design/rig/sails/sailing-unstayed-cat-ketches-and-cat-yawls-safely-and-efficiently-downwind-in-strong-winds/

Great job on the boat!

[meester]

 

I just returned from the Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival where I met a lot of great people and saw a lot of interesting boats.  Graham and Alan were there and they gave a nice evening talk.   I"ll be happy to tell you all about it, but right now, it's time to brag.  Please forgive my massively inflated pride.

 

For me, it was an amazingly fun and victorious weekend.

 

I entered the "Mellimac" for judging in the contemporary design division, and picked up a 2nd place ribbon.  (That's brag #1) A lot of people stopped to ask about the boat and the rig, and I often got asked about how the lug does against more conventional rigs.  I hadn't really sailed with other boats yet, so I had to say that I didn't know,

 

Now I know.  My boat is fast!  Ok, certainly not embarassingly slow.  The MASCF has an informal sailing race  with boats of every shape and size.   Handicapping would be a hopeless task, so the race directors typically decide on the classes after the race.  It's a fun, light-hearted format.  This year, the director decided on sail shapes for most of the race classes, and I ended up with a 1st place ribbon in the lug sail class.  But that's not the bragging point.  Here's brag #2:  I came in 6th out of about 45 boats overall.  I'm pretty sure that no boats smaller than 15' came in earlier, and a lug rig coming in early surprised a few people, me included.

 

As if my head wasn't getting big enough. Brag #3.  Graham and I went out for a sail so that he could check out the lug rig.    Overall, he seemed to be pretty happy with the rig's behavior and he gave me some good tips on avoiding the death roll and on smooth jibing.   What an honor to get coached.  There was one thing that he really didn't like, and that was that I don't have telltales on the sail (yet).  After Graham had taken a turn,  Alan came out and gave it a test drive.   Alan paid me a real complement.  Brag #4:  Alan said, and I quote, "very cool."

 

I'll stop grinning in a couple days.

 

Bob

 

 

[Alan Stewart]

Here are some pictures from the event!

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6uPOg91Sg3YFXrpg1

[meester]

Hi All,

 

Here's a little progress on my winter projects.   First, I learned to make netting and I have made nets that go under the decking to hold gear.  There's bungee cord across the top and the bottom row is made with smaller loops so that it can be pulled tight.

 

I'm also working on a tent, and I put up a rough draft mock-up to check things out before investing in good materials.  The basic idea is to suspend the boom and yard in a lazyjack system between the main mast and mizzen and then hang the tent below that.  In the mock-up, I just put the quick & dirty "tent" on top of a suspended spar.   There are 4 x 6' fiberglass rods (driveway markers) that hold the roof and then I would add side walls.      It could be a lot of windage, so I am also thinking that in a storm, I'd lower the stern end and tie the roof right down to the deck.  

 

 

Thanks to Steve W for describing something like this to me when we were at the messabout.

 

Bob

 

[Paul356]

Neat nets.  I need to try those.  I found a couple of youtubes.  Did you have a specific place you learned to tie them?

[meester]

Hi Paul,

 

There is a lot of information and demonstrations online, and lots of ways to get the job done, especially when it comes to starting and finishing off.  Turns out that it's almost the same as making lace, except for size and machismo.

 

I think I got started learning from this fellow at the MASCF a couple years ago.  I didn't use the jig though, I just used a gauge card -- a thin slat about as wide as net square.

https://youtu.be/HfB1XjhYPP0

 

You can buy netting needles, but making the needle out of a coat hanger is crafty.  This video also has recommendations on the twine.  Later videos in this series teach the flying dutchman method, which is supposed to be really fast.

https://youtu.be/CZfWCyv1eFo

 

My first attempts used twisted nylon twine, and it was too slippery.  The knots just came loose and the net turned into spaghetti.  "Bonded" netting twine has a polyurethane coating that helps hold the knot.  I used a tar-coated nylon braid.  http://a.co/9UIHH2c.  This was too sticky to use the flying dutchman method.

 

Much easier to explain in person, but PM me if you have questions.

 

Bob

[Paul356]

Thanks, I'll check out those sites.  

[meester]

Hi All, 

 

This past weekend, I accomplished a long-term goal to go on overnight adventures in my boat.   I took the Mellimac for a two-night cruise with the Shallow Water Sailors, (www.shalowwatersailor.us).    This was their annual Spring Cruise, and nine boats sailed on the Little Choptank River near Cambridge MD.   I wisecrack that I'm still looking forward to sleeping on the boat,   but it was really not that bad.  I may never trust an air mattress again.

 

Here are some pictures of the boom tent that I came up.  But wait, there's more!  It's also a boat cover!  I needed a tent, and It'd be nice to keep my gear dry when trailering in wet weather.   Do I really need two big canvas things?

 

Here it is in boat cover mode at a hamburger stop on the road.

 

... and in tent mode.

 

 

I messed up on the bow section and had to improvise with different material, and then messed that up too.  The main roof and walls are flame-retardant polytarp.  The roof is suspended from the boom and mizzen using 4 battens -- six-foot driveway markers from the hardware box store.   The tips of the battens are held in pockets made from tubular nylon webbing and pulled downward by cords that anchor under the rub rail. I need more tension along the eaves to prevent sags, but good enough for a first shot.  

 

It makes a nice bachelor pad and the neighbor kids enjoy it too.

 

The walls flip up to make more of a shade shelter

 

Overnight on the water, I kept the mizzen sheeted in with the snotter tight, and the whole rig stayed steady pointed into the wind.   There were light breezes and a few little showers, so the tent didn't get a real stress test.  There are bugs to work out and some thinking to do, but overall, I'm happy with the design.

 

Bob

[Ken_Potts]

It's a veritable palace on the water!  Looks like fun.

[Paul356]

Very nice.  Looks like the real deal.  Many good ideas I plan to steal.

[Chespearl]

Here are a couple photos of Bob underway in MELLIMAC on the Shallow Water Sailors Spring Cruise. I was hoping to be sailing CS17 #191 ARJAY but I'm still working on the rigging so I was in my old no name Wayfarer again. Bob's boat sure looks sharp!

 

[Steve W]

Sweet design . Thanks for sharing.

[Jonathan M. Cohn]

Bob, I enjoyed meeting you and seeing your boat and rig at the 2024 Messabout. I also really enjoyed reading this thread that explained some of your thinking and calculations on the lug rig. Despite your assertion your not a "racer" I loved hearing about your race victories at the MASCF. What have your experiences been since on speed compared to other boats, especially other Core Sounds and other lugs. I found it interesting that the CS 20.3 at the Messabout didn't seem a lot faster than the CS 17.3.

[meester]

"She's fast enough for you."  https://youtu.be/bosSsgzgenA?si=bKpTyTQsPgyMXNDi

 

Hi Jonathan, I enjoyed meeting you too.   First off,  the CS 20.3 is a freaking rocket.  My boat is respectably slower than the CS 17.   Some of that difference might be waterline, and some might be the sail plan.  I don't think I've had a chance to compare against a CS15 with the designed cat ketch sail plan.  That'd be interesting.  if the 20 and 17 are grade "A+" on speed, my boat is probably "A-".

 

I think that there are important differences between various lug sail designs.  The sail I use is designed for Michael Storer's Goat Island Skiff. Storer has been tweaking and racing standing lugs probably more than anybody, so I trust that the sail design is a well-optimized lug.  The yard rises at a steeper angle than many others, maybe to create a higher aspect ratio.

 

When I'm sailing in company with other camp cruisers and trailer sailors, I think my boat is usually one of the faster ones. Some of that is boat and some is technique.  Beyond basic sail trim, I'm always trying to avoid dragging the transom.  If the transom is down in the water, it creates a trail of turbulence, which is wasted energy.  On the other hand, the skipper who's relaxed in the stern enjoying the sky and water is also winning, right?

 

In retrospect, if the lug yawl rig sacrifices some speed, it hasn't been a big sacrifice.  Sailing performance is still pretty good.

[Don Silsbe]

@Jonathan M. Cohn— I suggest you sail a cat ketch, before you settle on either rig.  I love having all the controls close at hand (with my cat ketch).  With a transom-mounted mizzen, you’d need to move around to adjust sail shape.  I also like not having a boom, as does my first mate.  Try it— you might just like it!  Where do you live?  Maybe we can connect you with somebody.

[Viktor Steimle]

Hello Bob,

Thanks a lot for pointing me towards this thread. I actually don't know how I missed it completely. I hang out much more in the Woodenboat Forum, but I occasionally check this forum, just because I like the B&B boats (especially the CS15 and CS17Mk.1).

I currently sail a Caledonia Yawl with the BL main and sprit mizzen for the third season and I love her. I love my mizzen and think it is exceedingly useful for single handing. I see it as a great safety feature. I never had a problem going downwind in the CY, even in fairly big winds, and gybing, even in "sporty" (somewhat unplanned") conditions has always been very benign. By the way, I don't quite understand Don's comment above that you have to move around to tend to the mizzen. The mizzen normally has a single sheet and is self tending. The mizzen sheet is led forward and is in easy reach of the helm. Very simple and effective.

 

I would like to build at some point a boat myself and one of the Coresounds is somewhere near the top of the list of possibles.  However, I always was a little bit leery of the ketch rig. The main reason for this is, that it seems to me the mizzen mast and sail is just in the way in the cockpit and makes it a much less useful space, be it for sailing, rowing, or for camping.

 

You obviously seem very happy with your boat and I have to say it looks very good.

 

Are you, or is anybody else here aware of a Coresound that is yawl-rigged with Coresound-style sprit sails? Naively I would think that this should work quite nicely and also, at least in part, be in keeping with the classic Coresound look. I imagine one would choose the mainsail from the next bigger model, move the mast step a bit further back and go with the mizzen quite a bit smaller, maybe form one of the Spindrifts. Again, I freely admit to my almost complete ignorance, but somehow I think it might work quite nicely, if done properly.

 

Cheers,

 

Viktor