Why not another CS17 Build Thread? Here's #366

[PAR]

I've had some good results with a buffer on house paints. It'll knock down stipple, brush marks and other imperfections. It can also improve the gloss too. I'd start with a good cutting compound, then move up to a polish. Of course, test in an inconspicuous area first.

[LennieG]

The boat looks great Matt. I'm jealous of your pace. I am still sloshing along trying to line up the trunk for installation while you are kicking butt. Like your color choice as well! Keep them coming.

[mattp]

I've had some good results with a buffer on house paints. It'll knock down stipple, brush marks and other imperfections. It can also improve the gloss too. I'd start with a good cutting compound, then move up to a polish. Of course, test in an inconspicuous area first.

I've wondered if something like this was possible. Rolling and tipping sure didn't work. Of course it could have been technique or lack thereof. We ended up relying solely on small and cheap foam rollers. There is some fine stippling but not perceptible at 5'+. It's a good match for our reasonable but not perfect fairing job.

[mattp]

The boat looks great Matt. I'm jealous of your pace. I am still sloshing along trying to line up the trunk for installation while you are kicking butt. Like your color choice as well! Keep them coming.

Thanks again Lennie. A looming deadline helps with progress. Apparently they want to grow some plants in the greenhouse come March. "That boat would make a nice planter!"

[LennieG]

Matt- what are they thinking? Don't "they" realize this is a boat shop, not a greenhouse

[mattp]

Matt- what are they thinking? Don't "they" realize this is a boat shop, not a greenhouse

I know! The nerve of them growing plants in my shop!

[mattp]

Today's visual progress report. No explanation necessary.

[mattp]

The boat shop is greening over.

Finally, some place to sit.

[mattp]

Well, we've been evicted from the greenhouse and it's back to the dungeon.

On the bright side, I got the masts back from powder coating and they look amazing. They will likely be the best looking parts of the boat.

[mattp]

A question for the seasoned experts: Is there any point to epoxy coating solid wood such as the tiller and thwart before varnishing? Will this make the finish tougher or make it easier to refinish later?

[Paul356]

I've frequenty coated the hardwood before varnishing.  It brings out the luster and gives the wood protection against dings and scrapes.  One or two coats of epoxy is probably worth 8 coats of varnish. 

[Hirilonde]

I never epoxy coat solid woods before varnish.  The protection it gives to dings and scrapes is minimal. Factor in also that epoxy has no UV protection. I therefore do not consider it to have any value as a build up.  Doing a total refinish down the road, which is eventually inevitable, leaves a blotchy color to the surface or an extremely tedious and time consuming process for removing the old epoxy. And should you expose the epoxy without knowing it will become damaged and create another seriously time consuming refinish project.  I simply see no point in it.  I use a real varnish (not a polyurethane or urethane) like Zspar Flagship 2015.  I thin the first coat and then use it straight for the rest of coats.

[mattp]

I never epoxy coat solid woods before varnish. The protection it gives to dings and scrapes is minimal....

This is the answer I really want to hear. Because I'd like to skip any unnecessary epoxy work. Of course, I am fully counting on epoxy for protecting my soft okoume from dings and scrapes.

[Hirilonde]

 

 Of course, I am fully counting on epoxy for protecting my soft okoume from dings and scrapes.

 

I question whether it does much for this either.  It is a waterproof barrier, better than virtually any other coating.  Rub rails, keels, chine strips (these are not in B&B plans, but can be added), or fiberglass and other laminated materials are the best for protecting the plywood, but you pay for it in weight.  These are not fragile boats.  A little care avoids a lot of minor damage.  And remember, if you can build it, you can repair it.

[PAR]

A typical epoxy coating (10 mils) will not offer much protection against dings and abrasion. This is what fabrics are for. A 4 ounce or lighter fabric will be transparent over wood. Epoxy under clear coats is problematic at best. If encapsulation is the goal then yes, but if it's a tiller or other item that will receive a far bit of wear and tear (like a rub rail or combing), then add the fabric or skip the epoxy entirely and keep up with the clear coating.

[Howard]

My tiller gets used, obviously, but not dinged up. So it gets varnished. If you have a nice piece of wood with any grain figure at all, and you want to see the most gorgeous thing you can imagine, put 10 coats of varnish on it. Don't skimp and don't stop at 7 coats when it already looks like it has been dipped in glass. Keep going. Plan on a scuffing it with 220 or 320 grit between coats, but that is not a big deal. Helps you see where you have been for the next coat.

 

The downside is, plan on at least an annual touch up. Do that and it will last a long, long time. If this is left out in the sun and is not covered, plan on a coating more frequently. A little work, but something you can take pride in.

 

PS: I like to put a turks head knot on the grip end of my tiller. Looks salty and allows you to register your hand on the end of the tiller without have to glance at it.

[PAR]

I agree wholeheartedly with Howard on everything he's mentioned. Consider the outter3 layers of varnish as sacrificial. They will wear off or get eaten by UV damage, so they're just toast. The layers under this are the "bulking" coats, which add enough film thickness to keep most of the UV from damaging the wood below. A modestly aggressive scrub with 220 will easily wear through 3 coats of partly spent varnish, so consider at least 6 bulk coats below the sacrificial finish coats.

 

My "Cliff's Notes" version is to apply 3 coats of varnish, without bothering to level it, just get it on the surface to build film thickness. Lightly level this once dry, then 3 more coats, sanding between coats if you varnish requires this, each sanding refining the surface progressively. This is 6 coats and you'd probably sanded off two of them. Three more coats, again refining the surface with sanding and it's starting to look really nice. Now the 3 sacrificial finish coats go down. This is 12 coats and you've probably sanded through a handful smoothing things up, during the process, so maybe a film thickness of 8 or 9 coats.

 

I also put some rope work on the end of the tiller, usually just behind the ball, for about 8". Rather than the bother of fancy knots, which I was never very good at, I just use a length of 1/8" - 1/4" (depends on the size of the tiller) single braid line, tightly wrapped around the tiller and tacked at each end. I'll often apply a light coat of varnish before wrapping it, which holds it in place pretty good too.

 

 

Here you can see a typical small boat tiller. It doesn't have the usual Herreshoff ball on the end, but the rope work is detailed. Note the hiking stick is treated the same way.

[Hirilonde]

Yup, I do all the trim on my Renegade exactly as Howard has described.   Each year I sand off a coat or 2 and add 3 or 4 more.   Yeah, it is some work, but damn it is beautiful!  If you think you can bomb proof wood and have it look natural and beautiful you are only deceiving yourself.

 

This is my Spindrift tiller and hiking stick.  I made it exactly to plans except I made it pivot and removable.  I varnish it every few years as it is stored in a bag with the rudder, daggerboard and seats (all varnished cept the blade of the board) 

 

[Joe Anderson]

I have always used Pettit's Captains Varnish which I think is a traditional non urethane but it is the only varnish I have used except some hardware store varnishes for non boat work.

 

Dave I am curious why you prefer Flagship over urethanes or polyurethanes of equal quality.

 

I have been experimenting with using Teak Oil on my bright wood in lieu of varnish. The results are a little work boat looking tending to grey or mold a little. The Teak Oil is suppose to have UV protection but I doubt if it can protect as well as several coats of varnish. Rubbing another coat on a couple times a year is pretty easy though. I wonder if anyone has long term experience with protecting bright work with penetrating oils?

[Hirilonde]

Real varnish has better UV protection than urethanes and polyurethanes and I think it looks a lot better.  But my favorite reason is that it is so easy to strip with heat when it comes time to start over.  Teak oil is a nice finish, but it doesn't last very long.  You would have to re-apply at least 2 more times during the 6 month season in RI, likely 3 if you wanted to maintain the golden color.  I don't mind doing some work each spring getting ready for the season, but once the boat is launched I want to go sailing.

 

These 2 photos are of Hirilondë's weather boards.  They have some where in the neighborhood of 15 coats left from the past 8 years, hard sanded by hand with 220, 1 coat, sanded with 400, another coat.  When this coat is hard I will sand again with 400 and apply the last coat.  Then I will be good for 6 months at the mooring in Wickford, RI.

 

 

The blue tape is masking smoked gray polycarbonate.