CoreSound20 or Bellhaven19, find the right design

[kaeptnr]

Hello together,

I have some questions about CS20MK2 and Bellhaven19,

in the moment I use a Bay River Skiff15, mostly single handed, near the Alps on small lakes,

the boat is really nice and works very well in most conditions.

So once or twice time a year I sail on the Adriatic See near the coast of Croatia, in moderate conditions it is a nice and relaxt sailing.

In rougher conditions, force 3-4 with 2-3 foot waves, It is some work, wet, and hard punching ride.

For the future I like to build a bigger, more seaworthiness boat with a small, flat simple cuddy cabin,
with remove able hatcht, to be able crossing limited open water (max. 50 miles) in usual conditions in summer.

Now same facts and questions about my favorite designs:

Bellhaven19
+ store able in my garage
+ wider then CS20, should by a very stable boat
+ high freeboard
- boat wight! 1100 lbs is this correct?
if yes, it would be tricky on the slip way with my non 4wheel drive car

CS20
+ high performance potential
+ a lot of space
+ less boat wight
- not store able in my garage

The performance is not all, but let me know something about the speed difference.

Attached two rough sketches (Microsoft Powerpoint) and a picture of my bay river skiff in Croatia last October.

Thanks in advance and many regards from Bavaria
Ralf

 

CoreSound20_schwarz.pptBellhaven_19_schwarz.ppt

[Chick Ludwig]

I have the first CS-20 Mk-2. The Bellhaven has more room in the cabin and is more able to handle rougher water. The CS-20 has a very roomey cockpit and is fast, and trailers much easier. It is water ballasted, and should be self-righting---but we've not been able to test that yet. She is quite stiff with the ballast tank full, and able to handle her sail area. For day sailing and limited over-nighting, the CS should work well, but for more extended cruising, where you may be exposed to heavy conditions, you may like the Bellhaven better. Have you considered the Princess 22?

Check the headroom in your modification of the cabins. Talk to Graham about balance and structural issues.

Half of the battle in choosing a design is analyzing the kind of sailing you will actually be using the boat for. Each of Graham's boats is an excellent choice when sailed in the conditions they are intended for. The best source for advice is Graham himself. He's very easy to talk with and will lead you to the right choice. Give him a call or shoot him an e-mail. "You spend the dime, and he'll give you the time." I know you'll be satisfied with whichever design you go with.

By-the-way. I've found that the boat ramp is usually not a problem. it is the weight and windage of the boat when towing on the highway. It takes the horsepower to handle the weight. Perhaps the greatest concern is "pushing" when you hit the breaks. Is your vehicle heavy enough to handle that?

[Tom Lathrop]

Chick hit all the major points to consider.  Either is a big step beyond the BRS15.  It really depends on which will suit you and the sailing you want to do.  The water ballasted CS20 will be easier to handle in launching and on the road.  Yes, its also faster but that should not be an issue here.  Overnighting comfort on the Bellhaven is better and less likely to cause cabin fever in bad weather.

[Hirilonde]

I just spent 3 weeks sailing Croatia this past summer.  Where do you usually go there?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Belhaven all the way for me!!!!!!! I like comfort and relaxation more than speed. I miss my Belhaven every day.  Ive had my Belhaven doing more than hull speed several times for the biggest part of the day on a broad reach, but the comfort of the design at anchor makes all the difference after a long day of sailing. It's a hard boat to beat for nasty weather also. Grahams advertisement that she will take it on the chine is very accurate.

 

I ran into a few members of a sailing club on a local lake one morning, and several members ask, are you sure you want to go out in this weather? I went against their better judgement and had a wonderful, but on my toes kind of time. She WILL handle the weather.

 

I'm sure the new design that Chick has built will be much faster and offer some good cruising.

[tom151]

Hello together,

in the moment I use a Bay River Skiff15, mostly single handed, near the Alps on small lakes,

the boat is really nice and works very well in most conditions.

You boat looks great.

Is that a daggerboard in your BRS15?

Please tell about it and how it works!

Thanks,

[kaeptnr]

I just spent 3 weeks sailing Croatia this past summer.  Where do you usually go there?

a good friend of me has a nice holiday house in Istrien (north west Croatia), close to the city of Buzet, that's a real lucky stroke for me.

I go alternating close to Novigrad and start near the mouth of the river Mirna,

if you like go to Google Maps and copy this coordinates in the search field  45.311175,13.608971

 

or I go near to Rabac, coordinates 45.03382,14.155303, nice small bay with a strand bar :-)

or to the village Trget, coordinates 45.021066,14.055533, very nice long bay (fjord), perfect for dinghy cruising,

but also fine for bigger boats, nice small harbor with two restaurants.

 

Let me know where you make your sailing tour.

Regards

Ralf

[kaeptnr]

Hello together,

in the moment I use a Bay River Skiff15, mostly single handed, near the Alps on small lakes,

the boat is really nice and works very well in most conditions.

You boat looks great.

Is that a daggerboard in your BRS15?

Please tell about it and how it works!

Thanks,

Hi,

it was real the first project with wood, I had no tools, no sawhorses, no clamps, nothing, just the plan and the book, modern wooden boat bulding with WEST SYSTEM.

I started this project in a DIY market and bought a drilling maschine and a jigsaw.....

After a long building time and much visits of the DIY market, I hasn't the persistency to build the complicated centerboard case, and also I don't want to cut the big slot

in this new hull....so I decided to build the simple daggerboard. For the board I used a form board for cement building, straight and very strong, it works since ten years and

some groundings... if this happend, I have to loosen the main sail very quick.

I drilled two holes in the board, so I can hold the board in different positions with a simple pin, depending of the water deepness.

I hope you can understand my discription, my english is not the best one.

Regards

Ralf

[Hirilonde]

My sailing tour was from Monefalcone, Italy right on the Slovenian border to Dubrovnik and back visiting 15 islands on the way.  On the Istrian Penninsula we stopped at Umag on the way down to clear customs and on the way back we visited Pula and Novigrad.  You are most fortunate to have a friend with a holiday house there.  Croatia is beautiful sailing.  Just be careful of the Bora, or Bura as they call it in Hrvatska.  Graham designs very seaworthy boats, but I still would not want to sail one in a Bora.

[kaeptnr]

My sailing tour was from Monefalcone, Italy right on the Slovenian border to Dubrovnik and back visiting 15 islands on the way. On the Istrian Penninsula we stopped at Umag on the way down to clear customs and on the way back we visited Pula and Novigrad. You are most fortunate to have a friend with a holiday house there. Croatia is beautiful sailing. Just be careful of the Bora, or Bura as they call it in Hrvatska. Graham designs very seaworthy boats, but I still would not want to sail one in a Bora.

must be a great tour, do you rented the boat in Italy?

last year I could feel the bora on a ferry ship and on the shore, very very impressive, strong fall wind with force 8-9 + heavy gusts, I am warned now!

[Brent]

Kaeptnr, I understood your dagger board description clearly. You have devised a good solution.

I have sailed a cs20 for many years. Often sleeping on board with a simple tent arrangement. I imagine the cs20 mark 2 to be a big upgrade for overnighting. This boat will make a fine cruiser for sheltered water. I have taken the cs20 on the ocean a few times, but must pick my days carefully. The boat can handle some wind, and is known to go put when other boats stay in port.

I had the opportunity to sail Scot's belhaven. It is a fine sailor which can handle the rough stuff with grace. The boat makes good speed in mormal conditions, but is less likely to plane versus the cs. This would be my preferred boat for open water and more comfortable overnights.

[kaeptnr]

I have the first CS-20 Mk-2. The Bellhaven has more room in the cabin and is more able to handle rougher water. The CS-20 has a very roomey cockpit and is fast, and trailers much easier. It is water ballasted, and should be self-righting---but we've not been able to test that yet. She is quite stiff with the ballast tank full, and able to handle her sail area. For day sailing and limited over-nighting, the CS should work well, but for more extended cruising, where you may be exposed to heavy conditions, you may like the Bellhaven better. Have you considered the Princess 22?

Check the headroom in your modification of the cabins. Talk to Graham about balance and structural issues.

Half of the battle in choosing a design is analyzing the kind of sailing you will actually be using the boat for. Each of Graham's boats is an excellent choice when sailed in the conditions they are intended for. The best source for advice is Graham himself. He's very easy to talk with and will lead you to the right choice. Give him a call or shoot him an e-mail. "You spend the dime, and he'll give you the time." I know you'll be satisfied with whichever design you go with.

By-the-way. I've found that the boat ramp is usually not a problem. it is the weight and windage of the boat when towing on the highway. It takes the horsepower to handle the weight. Perhaps the greatest concern is "pushing" when you hit the breaks. Is your vehicle heavy enough to handle that?

 

Hello,

your postings are very helpfull to find the right boat for me.

My feeling in the moment is, the boat for the future will be a CoreSound20 MK2.

One importend part of the MK2 is the ability to store ballast in the water tank, ---> kann you tell me roughly how much?

(I store in rougher conditions 50 Liter (about13 US Gallons) in flexible PVC camping water bags in front of the daggerbord case, that's also postive for the comfort and stiffness.)

The comfort and size of the cuddy is not important for me, but to store all the gear, foot and so one I like to have one.

(I like also to go by bicycle in holidays with my small tent and Therm-a-Rest mat for some weeks.)

The MK2 is lighter and easier to launch and transport.  --> my car can pull 1600kg (3500lbs), for this weight, the trailer must have a seperate brake in Germany,

and has all modern electronic features, but! front wheel drive and no automatic gear box, the problem for this cars are the first meters.....

I don't have to cross often open water, but I plan to do that in save conditions.

The only negative part is the length of the boat, 5,80m would be better.

 

Are there some more facts or informations about the new MK2 available?

 

Thanks to all for the very helpfull postings!

many Regards

Ralf

[Chick Ludwig]

I don't know how much the ballast tank holds. The designer, Graham, does know so I suggest that you talk to him. There is a discussion about the tank and the fill/drain method in the Mk 2 building thread (http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8080-cs20-mk2/). The easiest way to drain the tank is to pull the boat out on the trailer, but with your light car you may not be able to do that. With a 3500# capacity, I don't think that would be a problem unless those "first few meters...". The usual way to drain it is by opening the Anderson bailer and "sucking" the water out while you are sailing or motoring forward. This works fine, but you have to plan ahead to allow time to do it, and if conditions are bad, you may not want to loose your ballast until you get in to the ramp.

I have not been out in rough conditions yet, so I can't advise you much on how much difference the water ballast makes, but in moderate conditions, it helps a lot. You can step on the gunnel and the boat barely heals. I'm sure that plenty of owners of the standard CS-20 can advise you on their experiences. In addition to the ballast, the Mk2 has 2 inch higher sides.

[kaeptnr]

Belhaven all the way for me!!!!!!! I like comfort and relaxation more than speed. I miss my Belhaven every day.  Ive had my Belhaven doing more than hull speed several times for the biggest part of the day on a broad reach, but the comfort of the design at anchor makes all the difference after a long day of sailing. It's a hard boat to beat for nasty weather also. Grahams advertisement that she will take it on the chine is very accurate.

 

I ran into a few members of a sailing club on a local lake one morning, and several members ask, are you sure you want to go out in this weather? I went against their better judgement and had a wonderful, but on my toes kind of time. She WILL handle the weather.

 

I'm sure the new design that Chick has built will be much faster and offer some good cruising.

 

Hi Scott,

 

why do you sold your Bellhaven 19?

 

Regards

Ralf

[kaeptnr]

I don't know how much the ballast tank holds. The designer, Graham, does know so I suggest that you talk to him. There is a discussion about the tank and the fill/drain method in the Mk 2 building thread (http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8080-cs20-mk2/). The easiest way to drain the tank is to pull the boat out on the trailer, but with your light car you may not be able to do that. With a 3500# capacity, I don't think that would be a problem unless those "first few meters...". The usual way to drain it is by opening the Anderson bailer and "sucking" the water out while you are sailing or motoring forward. This works fine, but you have to plan ahead to allow time to do it, and if conditions are bad, you may not want to loose your ballast until you get in to the ramp.

I have not been out in rough conditions yet, so I can't advise you much on how much difference the water ballast makes, but in moderate conditions, it helps a lot. You can step on the gunnel and the boat barely heals. I'm sure that plenty of owners of the standard CS-20 can advise you on their experiences. In addition to the ballast, the Mk2 has 2 inch higher sides.

 

Hi,

I would install a bilge pump to drain the tank, if I can't use the bailer.

It would be also helpful to know the weight of the CS20MK2

[Scott Dunsworth]

Ralf, I let my Belhaven go to build my 28. Purely financial I needed funds to get a good jump start on the new build. If I had the time and money I would build another in a heart beat. My Belhaven took good care of me as I made a lot of mistakes learning to sail. She was always comfortable after a long days sail. Super easy and fast to rig and get in the water. I have been in some very rough water FOR inland lakes and never felt out of control. She is a suburb design in every way. The main reason I miss her so much is she was so comfortable for a 19. I used her at least monthly for at least a weekend. I have spent many winter nights in the 20's on her with a clay flower pot on the cook stove for the only heat. My boat was heavy, mostly because I didn't leave anything at home. One trip we made to ten thousand islands for two weeks I calculated we had 800 lbs of stuff with us. She was a bit sluggish, but still sailed well.

 

The Belhaven is one of the best if not the best small cruser design out there.

[kaeptnr]

Ralf, I let my Belhaven go to build my 28. Purely financial I needed funds to get a good jump start on the new build. If I had the time and money I would build another in a heart beat. My Belhaven took good care of me as I made a lot of mistakes learning to sail. She was always comfortable after a long days sail. Super easy and fast to rig and get in the water. I have been in some very rough water FOR inland lakes and never felt out of control. She is a suburb design in every way. The main reason I miss her so much is she was so comfortable for a 19. I used her at least monthly for at least a weekend. I have spent many winter nights in the 20's on her with a clay flower pot on the cook stove for the only heat. My boat was heavy, mostly because I didn't leave anything at home. One trip we made to ten thousand islands for two weeks I calculated we had 800 lbs of stuff with us. She was a bit sluggish, but still sailed well.

 

The Belhaven is one of the best if not the best small cruser design out there.

 

I think, this was true love!