Which boat to build?

[paddleplus43]

I'm trying to determine the difference between the Bellhaven 19 and the Princess Sharpie 22. Other than 3 feet what are the pluses and minuses of the Princess Sharpie 22 over the Bellhaven 19? Thanks for your assistance.

[Gordy Hill]

Hi Skew,

Sorry no one's answered you, but we'd need a lot more info on how you intend to sail, where, how often, etc. Three feet is a lot of boat. If you're going to be single-handed most of the time and the boat is going to live on a trailer, you might find you'd use the smaller boat more often. If you'll be sailing larger waters with a partner,you might not have 'enough' room no matter how big the boat is.

[John Burritt]

Like everything else, its a matter of choices. I believe the Princess is a bit more complex of a build than the Belhaven. The Belhaven structure is more similar to the Core Sounds. Both will take you just about anywhere you want to go. I did a restoration on Princess hull #1 and really liked its lines, but haven't done original builds on either one. I think there are forum threads on both boats back aways. Graham's web site has good information on both boats.

[paddleplus43]

thanks so much for sending a note on this post. Here are more details: i'm 6'5" weight about 245 and usually sail alone but i'd like to have a boat that i could take my wife along for some long weekend gunkholing. She's not a big sailor but loves to be on the water and have some protection if she gets too much sun. I'll probably be sailing this boat mostly by myself. I sail mostly in the upper Chesapeake Bay but want to sail is the tributaries of the lower bay and behind Assateque/Chintague Islands, down in the N.C. bays and maybe down in Florida. Currently I like to sail from April - November. The boat will be kept on a trailer when not in use. I worry about boats less than 22' on the Chesapeake Bay as the weather can kick up without notice and the longer boat cuts throught the chop better. I would like a V hull so there isn't that "flat bottom bounce". I like the idea of the Bellhaven's offset keel and 2 other mini keels for shoal waters but am concerned about the amount of room in the cabin part of the Bellhaven. I guess it's a trade off. What would Graham's website be? I look forward to any and all responses. i plan on getting started on this project this Fall. thank.

[John Burritt]

Graham's web site is: http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/ Check the site & then email him your questions.

[PAR]

There is a huge difference in size between the two, even though there's just a few feet of length in difference, the 22 is 50% more boat. Both would be difficult to solo launch and recover, but the 19 would be much better in this regard. Personally, I'd recommend the CS-17 instead. It can easily handle your weight, is small enough to handle solo at the ramp and sails very well. It would also be a less costly build. Don't buy a boat that's too big, just because you think you need to because of your weight. If a boat is designed to handle four grown adults, it can easily handle you and a couple of friends.

The hardest part of selecting a design is evaluating your needs. Don't make assumptions about a particular design's capacities or capabilities. Make lists of the things you need and want in a boat and assemble designs that come close to hitting all the points of consideration.

[ricknriver]

There is a huge difference in size between the two, even though there's just a few feet of length in difference, the 22 is 50% more boat. Both would be difficult to solo launch and recover, but the 19 would be much better in this regard. Personally, I'd recommend the CS-17 instead. It can easily handle your weight, is small enough to handle solo at the ramp and sails very well. It would also be a less costly build. Don't buy a boat that's too big, just because you think you need to because of your weight. If a boat is designed to handle four grown adults, it can easily handle you and a couple of friends.

The hardest part of selecting a design is evaluating your needs. Don't make assumptions about a particular design's capacities or capabilities. Make lists of the things you need and want in a boat and assemble designs that come close to hitting all the points of consideration.

Fine input PAR as always, but wondering about the launch and recovery difficulties expressed. I'm new back to sailing but have launched and recovered heavy 3-4K FG powerboats 22-24' alone with little difficulty as long as ramp area water pretty quiet, and trailer, and winch decent, and have seen others doing same alone with much bigger boats. With an aux OB and tabernacle masts don't see a problem with the PS22 unless I'm really missing something? Planning on a PS22 myself for NC and beyond, and as OP said would be nice to have the size for Chesapeake waters and overnights. Just thoughts, R

[PAR]

Man handling a 22' sailboat onto a trailer in a chop, with a contrary wind and current can be a challenge. Powerboats typically are driven on, literally gliding up the trailer, which is fine for 'glass hulled production boats, but not wise with a wooden hulled craft (power or sail), as you'll constantly test the strength of fasteners, sheathings and eventually tear or break something. This means you'll be man handling the lass onto the trailer. If the trailer has front and rear guides of clever arrangement, you can eliminate much of the difficulty, but it's very rare to see a trailer setup for recovery this way. At most (well usually seen anyway) there's an aft guide, some keel rollers and bunk boards, which means the boat can easily get sideways and misaligned, causing lots of cussing and potential damage. In other words, though it depends on the weight and boat/trailer configuration to a great deal, boats over 19' can become a pain in the butt to recover short handed. Launching is a fairly easy operation with some practice, but again bigger craft will quickly find the wind and current, adopting what ever orientation it desires as it comes off and floats free. Again, a clever trailer setup can ease much of this, but it's not something I see much of any more.

[hokeyhydro]

PAR nailed it - lighter is better when trailer launching/retrieving. My daughter's wood/epoxy S&G catamaran lives on a trailer and I designed that rig for EZ Breezy launching. Course the whole boat rigged goes about 160 pounds so even a lame old git like meself can grab the forestay connection and lift the bows onto the rollers and just walk her on to the trailer bunks.

My two power boats have drive-on trailers, although for the 23' beast I float it on since 2 1/2 tons doesn't like to stop on a dime. The 18' boat is aluminum V-hull and I always drive that one on. Figure about 1500 lbs loaded with fuel and driver, it will stop quick. And as PAR mentioned, crosswinds and currents can make launch/retrieve very interesting. The only time I would attempt a solo launch of the 23' boat is when current/tide was zero and wind dead calm. I have slid the 18' rig on the trailer with river current of 8 knots and crosswinds gusting to 20 knots. FUN! That boat is so light if I get it a little crossways on the bunks I can sort of do a quick lewg press on the sheer rail and horse it on straight.

But a sailboat, especially a wood rig, winching her on is the way to go. Slow and easy. Side guide rollers would help keep her centered. But unless you get fancy with trailer add-ons, have a crew with you. And of course much adjustment of the various supports will be needed so none carry most of the weight. That will eventually result in a bent boat.

[PAR]

A big "V" shaped fore foot "catcher" is a real handy thing when retrieving a bigger boat. I never get in the water to recover a boat. We have gators that think people taste like chicken (well maybe kids do), so if I can't recover the boat from the ramp or warping with lines from the dock, I'm not a happy guy.

The V shaped catcher isn't like the little dinky things, they sometimes are use on powerboat trailers. It's big V, a few feet tall at least. On my 23' sailboat it's 4' tall. This is because the trailer needs to be fairly deep so the boat will float on fully. I don't winch the boat up, I drive it on, the big V centers the forward end and the straight up guides aft keep the butt in line, then the boat will settle onto the bunks as it's hauled out. The V is about 5' aft of the stemhead fitting on the 23' boat and it contacts the bilges of the hull as it's motored onto the trailer. Once in this position I can hook up the bow eye to the winch lanyard and the boat is secure. The V and aft guides keep it on the centerline and the lanyard at the right distance aft of the winch tower.

Lastly I don't winch up tight. This is how you snatch bow eyes right out of the boat. The winch tower does have the V shaped chock, but the boat rarely is nested into, though it's usually close. The V is made from 2" electric PVC conduit (much better UV resistance then regular PVC) and has two little stubs of 1" square tubing attached to the trailer and up about a foot in each tube. When the boat hits them, they bend, then push the boat back to where she belongs easily.

[ricknriver]

A big "V" shaped fore foot "catcher" is a real handy thing when retrieving a bigger boat. I never get in the water to recover a boat. We have gators that think people taste like chicken (well maybe kids do), so if I can't recover the boat from the ramp or warping with lines from the dock, I'm not a happy guy.

The V shaped catcher isn't like the little dinky things, they sometimes are use on powerboat trailers. It's big V, a few feet tall at least. On my 23' sailboat it's 4' tall. This is because the trailer needs to be fairly deep so the boat will float on fully. I don't winch the boat up, I drive it on, the big V centers the forward end and the straight up guides aft keep the butt in line, then the boat will settle onto the bunks as it's hauled out. The V is about 5' aft of the stemhead fitting on the 23' boat and it contacts the bilges of the hull as it's motored onto the trailer. Once in this position I can hook up the bow eye to the winch lanyard and the boat is secure. The V and aft guides keep it on the centerline and the lanyard at the right distance aft of the winch tower.

Lastly I don't winch up tight. This is how you snatch bow eyes right out of the boat. The winch tower does have the V shaped chock, but the boat rarely is nested into, though it's usually close. The V is made from 2" electric PVC conduit (much better UV resistance then regular PVC) and has two little stubs of 1" square tubing attached to the trailer and up about a foot in each tube. When the boat hits them, they bend, then push the boat back to where she belongs easily.

Great info and guidance. I have a lot to learn on the proper care and handling of "woodies". Any chance of a pic of that large "V" guide. Should be good for my small BRS15 trailer too. Many thanks, Rick

[PAR]

I'll see if I have a picture or will take one. Another note, the V should only touch at the bottom of the fore foot when the boat is on the trailer, the V having less deadrise then the boat in that area. This prevents the V from scuffing the paint or slapping against the planking as you drive down the road. On my powerboat, I don't have a V, but use two "U" shaped guides, one aft and one forward. They do exactly the same thing, except they only touch the rub rails, not the hull. They keep the boat centered on the trailer as you drive the boat on. They're also painted to indicate where the trailer needs to be when a float off launch is possible.

Another note, don't try to mash the boat into the winch tower chock with the winch, during loading. I use just a bungee cord, no winching at all. This is because the boat is sitting level, but the trailer is at a 6 to 10 degree angle when you're recovering it. The back of the trailer is usually a few feet lower then it needs to be, to support the boat and only the further most forward roller is making contact with the boat. This is one reason the boat can wander around in contrary winds and currents. The guides keep it centered, but a bungee keeps the boat pulled forward, but will easily stretch as the trailer and boat reorient themselves as they're pulled from the water. This orientational difference, causes the winch tower and bow chock to rotate away from the bow, as the trailer becomes level. If you have a hard connection between the boat, the chock and the bow eye, some thing's going to give, usually the bow eye. The only time this isn't true is when the bow eye is located right at the LWL and the winch cable is in line with this point (usually placing the winch under water). Then the rotation is so slight that you can use the give of the rubber chock to make up the rotational difference as the boat settles on the trailer. This is especially true of boats with a lot of bow overhang.

I have a stop that catches the stub keel on my sailboat, but on the boats that don't have this feature, I have a bow chock, but mounted very low and at the LWL when the boat is on the trailer. Again, it's rare for the boat to actually be nested in the chock, as it rotates away slightly during the haul out, but it does stop the forward motion of the boat when loading.

A properly set up trailer doesn't need bunks, just pads and keel supports. It also should permit some latitude, in where the boat can rest on the trailer. My sailboat can be 6" off the mark fore and aft and still rest comfortably on the trailer. This is (again) to compensate for the rotation issue of the trailer and boat coming together as you drag them up the ramp.

Lastly, most boats load and launch much better if they're oriented on the trailer, bow down a good bit. This lets the boat and trailer come together at the same angle when recovering and when launching. On large trailer boats, like my 28' Chris Craft, you have no choice but to launch this way other wise you can't get the boat far enough back to float off the trailer. You have to picture how a boat launches. The stern gets mashed well into the water until enough buoyancy is there to lift it, often with water coming in the splash well in the process. Then the boat "center stands" on the forward rollers, until you back in far enough to float or power off the trailer. If the boat is bow down on the trailer, this keeps the transom clear until the belly of the boat has enough water under it to float, then the whole boat just lifts up uniformly and is free, no center standing and having wave action test the stiffness of the forward bottom planks.

Okay, long dribble over . . .

[PAR]

One more note to add to the long dribble above. When setting up aft guides for your boat, set them so they squeeze the boat pretty good. Place them as far aft as you can on the trailer too. Boats have some taper in their hind quarters and if the guides are trying to pinch the boat's butt, then it will act like a melon seed and scoot forward, helping keep it up on the trailer, rather then floating back. This is especially useful on sailboats.

Yep, you'll have to "push through" the pinching guides as you get the bow through, but this is very easy if they're PVC pipes.

[Brent]

I sail the Northern Chesapeake on a Coresound 20. If building for the Chesapeake I would choose the Princess 22 over the Belhaven for the additional creature comforts from the larger cabin...personal preference. Both can get into the shallow water where the really spectacular Chesapeake anchorages are. The princess is a more complex build, and will take a little longer to complete.

This thread if full of trailer comments that dont sway me one bit. I know how to set up a trailer that will make getting either boat on and off an easy job for a singlehandler.

[John Turpin]

The P22 is a very very cool boat. It may be a little extra work, but it would be worth it.

[Scott Dunsworth]

As for loading and trailering the Belhaven she is a breeze. I have pulled her to the ten thousand islands twice (1000 mile )and to the outer banks area three times (800 miles). I use a v6 pickup without any problems. Loading her on the trailer is as simple as backing the trailer in to a depth that I am familiar with and simply driving her on the trailer up to the winch post, clipping her off and driving out. Unless the ramp is a very shallow one then I will have to winch her on. My trailer is set up with rollers along the keel and side guides. Even in wind and currant its a breeze.

I went through the same thing before I built my Belhaven. I actually went to Graham's to purchase plans for the 26 Princess and ended up with the Belhaven. I figured that I would be using the boat by myself most of the time and that meant launching and retrieving by myself.

I have been in two Princess's 22s, hull #1 when Chic owned her and Tony's at the 2009 mess-about.

As for head room the Belhaven has slightly more head room, but the 22 has a much longer cabin. I find the cabin very nice and comfortable for one, gets less so for two adults and is very tight for three. I almost always go out for 4 to 14 days at a time and do pack a lot of stuff in her. So that takes up room also.

I haven't been sailing in any water (yet) that she made me feel unsafe in. We sail Pamlico sound last time I was out in a small craft advisory warning. The waves where as high as the cabin. She would rise up with them and surf a bit.

I sailed back to Grahams a few years ago from Belhaven NC and that was the roughest water I've been in. I had all the reefs in and we had water splashing over the cabin top into the cockpit. It was a very wet wild ride but we never felt unsafe.

The only thing that makes me very nervous is trying to dock to a dock that's down wind, with strong winds.

Scott

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Cabin size difference between p-22 and Belhaven is virtually nil.

extra 3 feet of boat with P-22 is mostly extra cockpit and not so much extra cabin.

And most of P-22 extra cockpit room is taken up with motor well. Bellhavens cockpit is nearly as functional as P-22. with only loss of dedicated motor well.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if volume of cabin is bigger with Belhaven over P-22. P-22 cabin trunk is sleeker and less boxy looking that may well translate into less cabin volume.

Personally I would think either would be fine to single hand and load un load. One can always recruit help at the ramp in untoward circumstances...

As an added benefit the Bellhaven can be rigged with the CS 20's race sail set. so one set of sails can power two boats.

That and the Bellhavens lighter trailer weight made the decision for me. And I very closely looked at the Belhavens, P-22 and P-26 plans for some time before starting to cut wood.

[Tom Lathrop]

This thread if full of trailer comments that dont sway me one bit. I know how to set up a trailer that will make getting either boat on and off an easy job for a singlehandler.

Launching neither of these boat should be looked at as daunting in any way at a decent ramp. At a bad ramp, anything you can't lift can be a problem.

Ray's comment about the relative size of the cabins and location of the motor makes sense. I prefer an outboard outboard but that is a subjective preference. P22 should be a bit faster with a longer waterline and, to my eye, is the better looking boat.

[paddleplus43]

I want to thank all those that have replied to my post over the past 10 days. The amount of information that has been posted is truly amazing and i really appreciate all of your insight. i'll keep you posted on my progress.