Coast Guard regs on boat builders?

[Kudzu]

I have done a little looking but have not found what I am looking for. When do you become a commercial builder? At what point, anytime you build one and sell or is there a certain number of boats? I think I remember reading Charlie's(?) posting about getting registered with the Coast Guard and what was involved but I can't find that post.

I have been toying with the idea of trying to build and sell a few small boats. Kayaks and canoes mostly. I am self-employed and an avid woodworker. I have a lot of spare time and love the building process. Trying to think ahead.

Thanks

[Frank Hagan]

Ray has researched this ... and I think the regulations differ for sail boats and power boats, and sail boats have much less stringent conditions placed on them. 

Between Charlie, Ray, Par, Graham ... who am I missing? ... we have quite a few professional builders here who deal with these questions.

[Charlie Jones]

First I'm registered with the Coast Guard to get my MIC- Manufacturers Identification code. That becomes the first three digits of the HIN when you assign that to a boat you've built. Mine happens to be WUD and is now registered to South Texas Sailboats. Used to build as CNL Woodworks but changed the name when I also became a boat dealer. The Coast Guard registration is free.

The Coast Guard will send an inspector by your shop at least once a year to go over rules and regs and also to be sure you REALLY ARE a bonafide builder. So don't expect to get an MIC and just play at building.

Secondly I have a Manufacturers and Dealers license through the State of Texas Parks and Wildlife, which is the area that oversees boat registration, etc in Texas. That license is good for 2 years and costs me $500. A customer  can't register a boat I've built in the state of Texas without that license number on the paperwork, although I do not need the Texas license to sell outside the state, although it does help in wading through the bureaucracy sometimes. That single license covers my dealership and my custom boat building operations.I would need it for either operation by itself though. For a change, something is combined at the same cost ( will wonders never cease???)

The requirements for sail and power ARE quite different- just as one example there is NO requirement for flotation or flotation testing in sail boats - in power boats there most definitely IS a requirement.

The is also no requirement in canoes or kayaks, but there IS in a pure row boat, So I build sail boats and canoes, kayaks, so I don't have to bother with the coast guard testing. We also have no requirements for load capacity, engine size etc testing for sailboats.

Now all of this other than the coast guard parts is specific to TEXAS- you'll have to check with iyr own state for builders licensing- I have no way of telling you about that.

P.S.- It sure as H E L L isn't a way to get wealthy, but I've become friends with EVERY customer I've built a boat for, and sure have had a lot of fun doing it.

[Kudzu]

Thank you Charlie. First, I know it's not going to get me rich. I have learned any business is much harder than it seems on the surface. Just about to fold up a business based on a really good idea. I learned that good ideas, even great ideas aren't worth the paper work if no one wants what you offer. Such a good idea and couldn't give it away! It's amazing!  Long story for another forum.

I have always had a passion for wood boats and simply love the water. I am Avid woodworker currently building furniture for LOML and family members. The woodworking part is simple for me and I love it.  My niece and I are hoping to start on two Kayaks after Christmas and do some camping out of them. I have been thinking for a long time that there is probably a small market in my area for small boats. Canoes primarily and maybe an occasional S&G kayak. Might lead to a sailboat, you never know. I have purchased my CS-20 plans for my personal boat. Rowboats, there might be two or three in our area. I would love to build me a fast rowing boat but I doubt there is any demand around here for one.

Mainly looking for something to fill in some spare time and make a little bit of money at the same time. I keep telling my niece to find a career doing something she enjoys, not just something she can make a lot of money at. Your will be happier doing what you love with less money. Being miserable in a job  you hate with money isn't a good situation. Been there done that. This would be fun side job for me.

Sounds like from what your saying I don't need the CG MIC number if I am just building a few boats a year then. I tried finding that on the CG web site but I couldn't find that. Thats what I was really wondering.  In Alabama you don't have register small boats like canoes and kayaks. I need to double check but I believe sailboats under 20ft are exempt too, unless it has a gas motor. 

Will look into State rules and regs next. We have the strictest operator licensing rules in the country but that is not an issue for building.

[Kudzu]

OK, now I am confused. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but sounds like Charlie was saying it wasn't required. Ray, sounds like your saying it is required.  Me, I couldn't find out either way on the CG site. Thats what I really am trying to find out.

Is it required? 

If not, is there advantages to being registered with them?

I don't have a problem with it, just trying to do some homework now before I get to that point. Assuming I decide to do this.

Regardless, thanks for the input.

[Charlie Jones]

I would not even consider building a boat for sale without the Coast Guard registration. If for no other reason than that then you can assign HIN numbers to the hull and be all legal. It costs nothing, is painless to do and keeps you on the up and up with the government..

[Kudzu]

Gotcha now.  Will go ahead and get an application.

As for insurance, not ignoring you. I am self employed, own two Corporations, one of which this would operate under. All to familiar with insurance.

Did some looking into state laws and they have provisions for homebuilt boats in my state. Pretty simple to get one registered that way. State Marine Police will issue a Hull ID number for it.

[John Turpin]

Mine happens to be WUD

I just think it's very cool that your code is pronounced 'wood'. 

[PAR]

Florida has a similar arrangement as has Texas. You can build a few boats a year and get "away" with it, but eventually the regulation police will catch up with you and then all that you own, or that your company has control over is not only subject to review, but potentially freezable. The IRS will get involved and several other government agencies, which can tie up assets for many years, essentially making you bankrupt (their whole point).

I too have a MIC and it can save a lot of hassles with the locals. The MIC is not a requirement, but a well run business would be well advised to provide one for itself.

You can apply for a "Z" number (the state designation for a home built), which is just as legal, but after the same inspector comes out to see your handy work a few times, they'll begin to ask more interesting questions, possibly looking into your business dealings, finances, etc.

I ran into this problem after several Z boats of my hand. It's painless to get the MIC (if you're not specific like I was) and warrants away local difficulties, as long as you pay your fees and taxes.

Personally, I strongly recommend you have your head examined, for contemplating going into the boat building business, as clearly you have substantial issues that only many years of therapy can solve. It's not an easy way of life, nor one that will likely make you any money. It can get you a first date, especially when you say you're a "yacht builder", but if the second date includes your current crop of yacht construction, which is a 12' pram, then you're screwed (or probably not, depending on how you're looking at it). Some of us (who's spouses clearly understand are hard headed or just plain nuts) insist on doing this because it's better then AA meetings every other night or similar inability. I was forced into it from an early age, literally beaten until I relented, eventually sucking it up and started building to spite my tormenters. I've since surpassed their expectations, made enough money to hire an old biker to "bump them off" and have been much happier ever since. Of course, since I only really knew how to build boats, I continued, just to keep the spirit and family tradition alive. Custom furniture is a much better way to make a living, one that is easily understood by others, a sure money maker and clients come by naturally, rather then out of bordom.

[Charlie Jones]

;D ;D ;D For John

Par - we did furniture repair and refinishing for years before I got into boat building and boat work full time- something like 20 to be more exact, and Laura worked in the shop with me for 7 years. We were fairly solvent during those days.

Now we stay broke.

But boat building is so MUCH more fun than restoring furniture.

And we get to do some fascinating things. I worked on an Irwin 46 ketch last week. Today we got a call to help deliver it back to it's slip on Thursday- We sailed it over for it's haul out last Monday.

I'm doing some woodwork on a 54 foot sloop and Saturday we spent the day sailing aboard that boat.

Finishing up a new tiller for a boat in the marina and have some work scheduled on a Condor 40 tri who's owner is a regular customer. So I do other things than just build boats. But as I said earlier- you aren't gonna get wealthy doing it.

But beats the devil outta sitting behind a desk, which I did until I was 40.

[P Doug (WA)]

;D ;D ;D : Very good PAR.  I enjoyed that 

[Guest ib1boatnut]

;D ;D lmao personally I feel you (Par, Charlie, Ray, and others) are living the life. When I look at the acomplishments of the builders on this site you cant help but think of the pride felt by them. I'm in your corner Kudzu you have the talent use it. Cover your bases and give it a go. Being self employed and things slow down why not try this as a (slow time investment). Start slow cover your butt. I know I would but I tend to complicate the heck out of every thing and would be broke producing the prototype. (Laws here are a little different than the states) I realize you cant feed your family on pride but it sure brings the best out of KD Best of luck to you.

[lewisboats]

Did some looking into state laws and they have provisions for homebuilt boats in my state. Pretty simple to get one registered that way. State Marine Police will issue a Hull ID number for it.

If you dig deeper...I think you will find that the home built boat is supposed to be built by the registerer. If it is built by someone else and purchased...it is a manufactured boat. In my state not only do you need to have a MIC to generate your HIN...you must supply a Certificate of Origin to the purchaser, along with a bill of sale before the customer can register the boat...and all boats have to be registered. I went this route and subsequently have abandoned it as a money loser (for me, not for everyone). I still get away with using my own HINs for myself by calling the (single, one off) boats I build as prototypes and test designs. It saves me from having to get DNR to examing the boat before I can license it. Obviously...if someting is wrong with it I won't be suing myself   

Steve

[Kudzu]

Well PAR, your right. I never claimed to be smart or clever. Heck, I am self employed and that proves some insanity I think. But maybe the saving grace is I don't think I want to do this for a living, does that show some sanity??  And I am already broke so how much worst can it get??

I figure once me and my niece get through the first two boats, I will have a good reminder of what was involved and might change my mind. But I doubt it. I enjoyed building my first one and restoring my old CC Sea Skiff.  Besides any thing I build will have to be field tested. If I build a spec boat it might take a lot of field testing. 

Seriously this would at best be a money making hobby. Never a career, at least I don't see it. But just something I enjoy. And if I ever get to retire it gives me something to do and keeps me out of trouble.

Steve, I wasn't thinking that I could get around the reg by homebuilt registration. Just commenting that we have a method. Doesn't really matter as canoes and kayaks under 20 feet don't have to be registered here. You just put it in the water and go. Sailboats have to be registered so they need something.

Anxious to get these furniture projects done so I start on the kayaks.

[PAR]

I was born on a boat 150 mile off the coast of Virginia (a wooden gaff schooner no less) and raised on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake. I saw how the farmers on the mainland worked and the local island fisherman toiled, so I elected to go surfing, which netted little money. Being naturally lazy, I didn't want anything to do with the way farmers or fisherman made a living. I got a job cleaning up wood shavings at a local mill renowned for spar making. I shoveled tons of pretty curls of spruce into a 55 gallon drums, just to be dragged to the furnace to heat the steam box.

I did this because I'd had to give up my paper route, as I couldn't keep up with deliveries on my bicycle anymore, soon it was to become a truck delivered route. Then I met a red head, with perky boobs (which I had no idea was someone else's step child at the time) and moved to Rock Hall, where painting the bottom, of well worn wooden hulls was king. I developed my distinctive cough at this time, likely a result of not using a mask or the other precautions we take for granted in today's climate.

By the time by second two headed child was born (excessive paint fumes, epoxy use, pick one) the stone was cast and I was pretty much screwed into this life style. I found that I liked dirt and sand, (especially after a good sweat) in the waist band of my shorts on a hot summer's day and these things were what we live for. Only poets and hopefully newly re-elected politicians could conger up better visions of Americana as far as I was concerned. Life is grand, so I thought.

Since, the red head sagged a wee bit and I met the step family, giving rise to the famous saying. I've scars all over my body, sailed all the oceans, won a few races and wish like hell I'd studied more, so I could have been the doctor my mother wanted me to be. They don't have hands that can't close completely, like mine, nor do little children shriek, when you take of a shirt on a hot day, in front of them. They have health insurance to cover the numerous employment related injuries and ailments which haunt most of us. Though I have given myself stitches on two occasions, to close up gashes provided by bad luck, a profession like my mother envisioned for me, would have supplied brothers in arms, to happily help out in favor of a 2 stroke handicap on their next month or three of golf with the boys. You can't just buy that kind of favoritism you know.

In the end, there is a renewed revival in craftsmen style furniture, which should be a warning to all those interested in boatbuilding as a profession. If you'd like to retire some day, without being directly preceded my a quick grab at the chest, just before you fall over, then trust me, McDonald's has a collage, is looking for a few good men and you'll make out better in the long run.

[Pontoon Master]

Yup first post. I went through this when I started building boats, piece of cake. The coast guard stopped coming around, retired and never replaced or something like that. If they do come around and you want him to leave, and like now. Just ask him what they plan to do about the MILLIONS of (automotive and the like) batteries that they dumped off the west coast into the ocean. That worked for me. They do send you a bunch of info that needs to be fallowed to the letter. Like floatation and lighting, but it's all easy. I saw photos from a local builder, with his 18' jet. He had to sink it several times, one of them with power plant fuel and sand bags for weight of the passengers. Can you say $$$$$$$$. He had to scrap the motor. Well thats it.