Another Princess 22 under construction

[capt jake]

I spotted this on another forum. Quite the builder!!

http://www.roguepaddler.com/princess.htm

[Ken_Potts]

I like his technique. I think I'll be throwing away a few tools before the next project.

[Designer]

I really like Joe's work and his productivity. I wonder if Joe would like a job?

[Ken_Potts]

Joe's busy building a boat but Ken would like a job

No, wait - Ken's building a boat too... but MUCH slower.

[brian watkins]

Whoever this is, it's a great story! Am I correct in assuming that behind the fun, this is a future Princess 22 builder who is working it all out in model form first?

[capt jake]

Am I correct in assuming that behind the fun, this is a future Princess 22 builder who is working it all out in model form first?

It is a great story! I also assume there is a 'real' Princess being built.

[wkisting]

Yes, I am a future Princess 22 builder. And yes, in my impatience to build the real thing, I've started this ridiculously detailed scale model... mainly because I think it will come in handy later when I lay out the interior on the real thing. I had the action figure laying around (not sure why... don't ask), so I started the article. My website is for kayakers, so I figured they wouldn't particularly like an article about sailboats unless I gave it a humorous twist (in some ways, a little creepy... is it just me, or does Joe really look like he's building in those pictures? Man, for an action figure, this little guy is very posable!). Eventually, I'll probably epoxy the model and sail it at the local duck pond next time the wife and I go on a picnic.

Sadly, it will probably be a year or two before I have space to begin building the full size princess... I'm in an apartment now, finishing up my Ph.D. in English at the UI, but hoping to move to a proper house (with yard for building a workshop!) somewhere closer to Lake Superior or the East Coast.

[wkisting]

By the way, Graham... if you're still reading this post, can I ask a quick question about the Princess?

I think the website lists the Princess 22's weight at 1100 - 1200 lbs, but somewhere (either in the archives, or a more recent post) I saw Travis Votaw post that he had weighed his P22 at 2400 lbs., which Charlie built very close to plans. Is that right? I think Travis mentioned the scale he used was questionable in accuracy, but surely it can't be that far off.

Is the website a typo? Should it be 1200 or 2400? Quite a difference.

Thanks!

[Frank Hagan]

Very funny site! I've been absolutely buried at work the past two weeks, so I haven't been around too much, but I checked out the link and it gave me a very welcome chuckle.

Joe is much more productive than most of us!

[Charlie Jones]

We ( Laura and I) LOVED the story of "Joe" I think we should see more of his work.

I think Travis weighed the boat, motor AND trailer so I don't know what he came up with for the actual boat- I'd bet he'll "weigh in" on this- if he doesn't I'll show it to him

[brian watkins]

Mr. Kisting, I hope we'll be seeing more of Joe's project. You're a very entertaining writer and photographer.

[Travis Votaw]

My Princess 22 netted out at 2400 lbs. This included 8 hp 2 cycle motor, 3 gal of gasoline, lifejackets, 11 an 16# anchors and line, empty icebox, portapotti, berth cushions, sails and rigging, misc galley equipment, and a few canned goods, but no water.

I weighed the rig at a moving company scales and was surprised at the weight. If I get the opportunity, I'll weigh it at some other place.

I was out on Lake Hefner in OKC yesterday. We had a good breeze, probably around 15. Top boat speed per gps was 7.4 mph. Just watching the gps, we sailed a lot of the time at between 6.5 and 7 mph.

[Designer]

Calculating the exact weight of a stock design is very difficult because the designer has very little control of the materials chosen and owners' customization, whether a boat is sheathed or not, the size of the fillets etc. Or uses an 8hp outboard instead of 6hp.

Hardly a week goes by without a call saying " I want to use meranti ply instead of okume", that is a 17% increase in the weight of the ply. Or, I can't find the mast material you specify. "can I use this wall thickness?". that raises the center of gravity.

Early on I added another 100# to the weight of the boat by increasing the ballast, not that she lacked stability (Travis can vouch that she is a very stiff boat) but I was afraid that if a builder made all of the heavy choices and raised the center of gravity to the point that she would not recover from a knockdown.

I was quite suprised when Travis said she weighed in at 2400#. I am still not convinced that she weighs that much because the first thing a designer does when he sees a new boat launched is to check the waterline to see if she is floating right. If you look at the pictures of Pilgrim you can can see most of the transom is out of the water and she is not down by the bow.

The main disadvantage of the boat turning out heavier is towing. The hull shape has good load carrying qualities and according to Travis and Chicks' GPS it does not appear to be slowing the boat down. Time will tell when we get a few more boats in the water and get more feedback. I am glad that you pointed this out to me, I will take the light boat weight out of the website and expand the sailing boat weight to cover the range of builders weights.

[wkisting]

Thanks Graham... I was just curious. My Jeep can pull 2400 lbs pretty easily (rated to 5000 lbs. towing), so whether it comes out to 1200 or 2400, it'll be fine. The discrepancy caught my attention, so thought I would ask.... make sure Charlie didn't build Travis' boat out of bricks or something like that.

Thanks also to those of you who complimented my "Joe the builder" article. As I continue building the model, I'll post some more of the story. For now, I left my camera over in the storage garage with my Pocket Cruiser, so with no way to document the progress, Joe's building has been put on hold. By the way, Graham, your plans are meticulously drawn. I used pins inserted through the drawings to transfer the lines to balsa wood... a perfect fit for every piece! For what it's worth, I really appreciate your precision with the blueprints... I've seen some horrible boat plans in my time. Yours are wonderful.

6.5 mph on the GPS, Travis? That's terrific. My little Pocket Cruiser doesn't like to climb over 5 mph in 15 knots. 4 mph is more typical. I'm glad to hear the Princess cruises faster (as I expected... but still nice to hear it confirmed). I'm really curious to see how fast Joe's Princess will travel. At 16" I'm not sure if it will have enough displacement to carry my little handheld GPS, but if it does, I'll send it across the duck pond and see what she clocks!

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- No bricks for sure. I should tell you I cut my boat building teeth building multihulls and I still have a fear of adding unnecessary weight. Unnecessary weight in the construction does NOTHING good for the boat, just makes it heavier and cuts the payload.

Just as an example- here's my Minipaw before the seats went in

[wkisting]

Speaking of saving weight, Charlie... Did you use Okoume ply for Travis' boat? I've always heard good things about Okoume, but then I just spotted this little snippet of info on the Glen-L webpage concerning Okoume:

------

OKOUME

(gaboon)

27 lbs. per cubic foot, 2.08 lbs. per board foot.

This West African wood produces large, clear logs of uniform straight grain. The heartwood is salmon pink or pale pinkish brown resembling some types of Philippine mahogany. The sapwood is grayish. It is only fairly strong considering other woods, but strong for its weight, although low in resistance to decay. The wood splinters easily and is best sawn with carbide tipped blades. It has little use in plywood boat building except in smaller boats where lightweight is more important than durability. Some imported plywood is made from this wood.

-----

I was surprised to read this. I thought Okoume was the premier plywood to use for ply boats... Is it better to go with something stiffer/stronger (albeit heavier) like Meranti? Or is the post on the Glen-L site just too pessimisstic regarding Okoume's strength?

[wkisting]

PS... the Minipaw looks terrific. Could you build me a P22 that light?

[capt jake]

ike Meranti

Ah, but there comes the 17% increase in weight again. A viscious cycle it is.

I ponder the same thing with my next project. Still undecided.

[Charlie Jones]

Yes but--- Okume in a matrix with epoxy/glass is a whole 'nother animal. Without the matrix i.e. a composite boat, it might be a different matter. But WITH the composite, properly done, you should have NO problems with using it.

The other side of the coin is what else would you use? Meranti is heavier, so is Fir marine- a LOT heavier in that case. PLUS the American plywoods are beginning to be real crap. And the cost is not that much less. I think the differential in building with Okume vs Fir Marine on the Princess 22 was around 600 bucks. Not worth it on a project like that.

It's also far easier to get a good finish ( to my standards) using Okume- no hard/soft grain problems to fight. So you save time there.

I've built 5 boats now using Okume and as far as I'm concerned it's the wood of choice till I find something better. I certainly won't be buying or using fir marine anymore except perhaps in 1/4 inch thickness. That seems to have retained a bit of value. The 3/8ths and 1/2 inch I've seen lately isn't worth taking home. And I'm talking Marine grade.

I've worked through probably 50 - 60 sheets of Okume in the last few years from 3 mm up through 12 mm, and I've yet to find a SINGLE void- not even 1/16 inch.

I think Graham feels the same way I do about the current state of Fir marine plywood by the way.

[wkisting]

Thanks Charlie. For the record, I have already ruled out marine Fir. I saw some very positive posts about Meranti, which is why I mentioned it. But yes, I agree as to the virtues of Okoume for weight savings.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease about its strength when glassed. I was pretty sure it was the right stuff to use, but the Glen-L write-up gave me pause. (Don't want to build a whole P22 and then have some expert come up and say, "What were you thinking building it out of that stuff? Idiot! Everyone knows that..."

If it has your endorsement, I'm sure it's good stuff. (Compliments on your workmanship, by the way... I've dug around eagerly in old posts to find the building photos you posted for Travis' boat, and I was constantly impressed with the quality of your work. Really outstanding.)

Ray, I've never run across the fungicide treated stuff yet. Sounds interesting and I'll be curious to see what the others say about its value to small-boat building. It's my understanding that Okoume is already more rot resistant than Marine Fir ply (correct?), so I would think if you're planning to sheathe both sides of the Okoume with glass, there would be little need for the fungicide... but I'm just going with my instincts here. Let's see what the experts say.