Epoxy coating going out of style?

[Greg Luckett]

Oh' date=' sorry Greg...

VIVA LA GOOGE !!

There :-)

eh?

[Guest]

Okay, I see that I have been much too serious with this discussion. SO lets begin by talking about epoxy, as it applies to the topic being discussed in that "PLACE" rotting out the surface it coats.

Instead they are certain to use only the finest marine grade ply and paint the exterior with multiple coats of oil based paint.

This says to me, that inferior products have or could have been used in the past. Do you agree with the consensous? Maybe yes or maybe no?

Now lets look at this line:

The rationale was that inevitably there will be cracks in the epoxy coating and moisture WILL penetrate to the wood.

Okay, Epoxy has no real strength by itself. Multiple coats is actually worse, in access over glass, too. It will always crack past the point of a surface of webbing in excess coatings . This is where I have always stressed some form of fairing compound, mixed in the green stages of coating glass.

Now what part of that do you not understand?

Now lets discuss plywood rotting. Plywoood is more stable than solid wood planks, but in the discussion, they are also talking about lapstrake boats, which in particular are small craft. , depending on epoxy glues with no fasteners, in so many of the tenders or sailing tenders of today's builders. Well heck its going to work and crack on its own. DUH!!!!!

Epoxy was never marketed as a cure all for a maintainance free boat. Before there was epoxy, there was fasteners , oil based paints, and flex caulking. Yearly scraping and painting was just par for the course and accepted behavior, just as in so many of the boats set on the hard in the winter and in the water for the warmer season.

We do not epoxy-coat any boat we build nor do we recommend that you do so. We will re-emphasize the importance of building the boat with the highest quality marine plywood, however."

Hmmmmm, seems like I've read this before. They cite the example of a rowboat they built that was used along the Maine coast and began blistering after a few years and then rotted away. Despite careful use the epoxy barrier was violated through scratches and then trapped the moisture and doomed their boat.

Our boating habits have changed for sure, using boats from a trailer, wiping them down, and also allowing for us to examine the boat after each use for defects. So in the end result, if you ding any boat, built with any material, and allow for water to creep in the bulk material, it will give you big problems, if you don't fix it, period. And if its rain water, or freshwater, it will rot, always has and always will, just as it does in your own house, if you od not address it.. But the thread also uses an example or a boat in Maine with dings with what appears to neglected.

One thing that so many seem to ignore is that uniform shine, a slick finish, is important on wooden boats, now. This is only acheived by one method, and that is sealing up the natural wood grain, for a smoothe surface. The lazy way has been epoxy, multiple coats of epoxy, for quick buildup, forgoing multiple coats of primers, sanding smoothe every other or so coats, and applying paints, shiney or semi gloss paints. One thing for sure, only true oil based paints should be used, and not two part poly paints on non glassed hulls and components. This will keep or minimize natural cracks for sure to create creeks for water to intrude into the under surface.

Next post, when I am not so tired I will address plywoods and all of the feelings on saving the enviroment. :wink:

And Tom, I have about two thousand miles in the last two days under my body. Its kinda hard to keep a straight face, and keep a serious train of thought. I still have to laugh at the old folks that still want to use candles in lieu of lightbulbs, thinking they are better for regular or daily use. We we all like an occasional candle light dinner, or an oil lantern on a yearly campout. But......

[mustangermatt]

I gotta think that a Core sound would really suffer from Carvel construction. The planking alone would weigh in at least 3 times as much, and Plank on frame really depends on the frame for the strength. An appropriate framing system and keel again would weigh in at least 2-300 lbs more.

Ray, I think we are thinking of different animals :-) I certainly agree that traditional plank on frame construction is usually about twice as heavy as ply, and would be totally inappropriate for a coresound.

I was thinking more of the veneer planked hulls that Chris Craft used to build. Years ago I had a 1948 33' chris craft sedan cruiser on which the hull was very lightly framed and had 3 layers of mahogany veneers laid at 45 degree angles to each other. The final layer ran fore and aft so there is the impression that the planking is carvel, but it's not at all. Each layer had painted canvas in between, I don't remember what kind of fasteners were used. The total thickness of the planking was not more than 3/8", I don't think you could build a ply boat that size any lighter. Certainly the ply boat would require similar framing/bulkeads as the Chris did. I don't know the all up weight of the sedan cruiser, but when I was living aboard with all my crap and my dog and my dogs crap (I mean stuff) it would still easily cruise at 22 knots and max at 28 with a pair of 230 CI chevy inline sixs (maybe 250 Hp total ?). You can't say that for most modern glass boats :-)

It would be interesting to build a boat (even a coresound) using this method with epoxy/glass in between veneers rather than painted canvas. But then that would be cold molded, wouldn't it. Still, it would be the prettiest core sound ever built :-) and the most expensive :-)

[Guest]

Mustang, you are not really making a lot of sense here. First you start a thread, with the impression, or buying into the thought process of epoxy creating rot, and now you are proposing building a boat with multiple layers of wood, with the same stuff. HUM. To think that some may think I am the one that is confused here. :roll: Shape has always been the biggest determining factor for multiple layered boats. There is even adverse affects with doing the core sound boats with multiple layers, except for a veneer of varnished product. The amount of work required for multiple layers and the additional waste and weight added to the stucture, is just nonsense and useless. The boat is built as is with single layer plywood, SO we know it is possible to do it.

The intent and purpose of epoxy is not to create a maintainance free boat, by itself, but to make it less work and to be a more stable hull, longer lasting under the conditions of being in or out of the water and with certain glass fabrics, used to make a stronger product for the overall weight of the structure. Coating wood, without using fabric is kinda a second thought, as many more products will do the same at less costs involved with raw material. This is the problem with discussing this with so many of the arm chair experts from some of the forums. You must look at each and every individual cases to see why any failure of any product has developed over time. These cause and affect, or affect may not be the same animal. Its just that simple.

[mustangermatt]

You certainly are confused Oyster :-) I think if you read back through this thread you will find that I have been careful not to promote any point of view in order to get unjaded opinions from others.

I think you will also find as you read back that you have partaken in name calling more than once on this thread. If you must be so confrontational please refrain from posting to my threads.

Thank you

[warthog5]

Mustang Your taking stuff to personly.

This thread has jump all over the place from to epoxy or not to epoxy.

Lapstrake building to cold molding.

Let me see if I can clear something up. I've known Oyster for about 4yrs now. he calls me on the phone about 4 times a week.

The man knows his stuff. he made a living for 30yrs building and repairing wood & fiberglass boats.

I will also tell you this about him, I'm the same way.

When people spout off "It should be done like so in so" and they don't have a clue or give BAD imfo. He get's upset as do I.

[capt jake]

Yup, Oyster is a good guy, he really didn't mean offense. I also have known him for a while and he knows his stuff. He is a great guy.

Oyster can often be taken out of context, orrrr such. ;)

[Guest]

You certainly are confused Oyster :-) I think if you read back through this thread you will find that I have been careful not to promote any point of view in order to get unjaded opinions from others.

I think you will also find as you read back that you have partaken in name calling more than once on this thread. If you must be so confrontational please refrain from posting to my threads.

Thank you

Please respond with examples of mailce intent of any of my posts. In your topic line' date=' it reads:

Epoxy coating going out of style?

Does this line not say that just maybe you got an impression that it may not be a great idea to use epoxy to seal wood, or even use as a solid primer under and from of topcoat finish? I took the time to go through key lines of the discussion taken from the thread you provided as a guildline to post this thread. I do believe that some clarity to the issue, does not constitute an attack on anyone. I have addressed the issue with a lighthearted approach, with the advances in boat building in relationship to the some of the ones posting on the WBF forum being a little closed minded when they speak of alternative methods.

I would be very interested to read your thougthts on what you did expect to read in replies, if this discussion bothers you. I for one will not be drawn into an arguement on this fourm. Fell free to reply to me by private message, with any other thoughts you may have on this matter. I come with many years of traditional building of boats from the raw material, cut in the woods by portable sawmills, , to advance to building with many known type of foam material laminated with epoxy., and vinylester resins. I do not know your background. But to this very day, this year will be 37 years, not that this is of any importance and a way to say I know it all, but have never had a boat hull or any part of them to fail in many open sea condition. The numbers could range to around 50 hulls, using a round number, of assorted sizes, up to 100 foot. I have only built three boats from actual plans, and CAD drawings and jigs.

FYI, my time here is just killing time for good friends and fellowship, If you have a problem with my replies, feel free to talk to Frank about it. He is more than welcome to delete my responses, not just modify them if so desired. There are so many builders using epoxy, that it would be impossible to miss such an impending disaster, such as rotting boats for everyone covered with epoxy. There also would be national outcry if epoxy is so bad, If for some reason you have not heard of this impending doom, then this should tell you how much credence to hold in the original thread on the WBF you have referred to for this thread.

Good day.

[P Doug (WA)]

Gee, I started reading this page of this string and I had to make sure I was on the right forum. Though maybe I had gone to the wrong website by mistake.

[Charlie Jones]

What the devil???? Did somebody jump a thread here? Where did that first post on this page 2 come from??

It's been a very interesting discussion up til then, with some various viewpoints being stated.

The type of construction mentioned in the older Chris was multiple diagonal, now most frequently called "cold-molding" with epoxy replacing the glued canvas. There is a real name for that type of construction but I can't find reference to it.

I've built a cold molded hull - in fact, three of them - a 35 foot trimaran. Western Red cedar. LOTs of work involved, but that's how it got round hulls.

The bow sections of the Princess are done the same way, because the plywood in a single sheet won't take the compound curves in the bow sections- STILL lots of work, even in that small section.

It's a fine technique WHEN THE NEED IS HERE for it, otherwise it's just extra work.

I really don't feel any one way of building a boat is all that superior to any other. It all depends on the boat design and the skill of the builder, or at least, the care that the builder puts into the job.

Hey - bending some planks around a center frame, nailing in a transom and nailing bottom boards cross planked on the boat is a great way to do it IF you want a simple, low speed boat to putz around in - Just add some oars, a can of worms and a cane pole and you're all set

[Frank Hagan]

Gee' date=' I started reading this page of this string and I had to make sure I was on the right forum. Though maybe I had gone to the wrong website by mistake. [/quote']

Interesting, isn't it?

A post that creates a lot of heat on WBF is imported here, and it creates a lot of heat.

So what did everyone expect?

Controversial topics, framed the way this one was, always do that. We aren't so special here, you know. We just have a different style.

This place isn't so much a place to debate techniques as it is to share techniques. We've done a good job of not being judgemental on things, and that's because a question is usually asked to solve a specific problem. But this question was not.

It wasn't "Hey guys, I'm building my boat and I've read this thing about epoxy ... what do you think?" That's the typical messing-about type of question. And the typical response is "I did this, and then that, and it worked really well."

You don't fight about shared experiences. You do about opinions.

The last thing I want to do is have messing-about start to become like the WBF. They have a wonderful tradition of a nearly "anything goes" policy, but that's not my style for this place. messing-about.com is different.

This thread is now locked.