Epoxy coating going out of style?

[mustangermatt]

There is a pretty interesting debate going on at the wooden boat builders forum. It seems that there are people starting to question the wisdom of encapsulating a plywood boat in epoxy. I grabbed a somewhat :wink: random sample of what they are saying.

...Then there are those that wanted to use exterior plywood for 1/3 the cost of marine, but felt it needed help to last like marine. Unfortunately they spent more money on epoxy then if they had bought the marine plywood to begin with.Sounds like a epoxy salesman's dream come true.

And then there is the issue of how many football patches are on the B side of the plywood for those that wanted a bright finish on a small boat, where everything is visible.

Then comes okoume and merantti, very pretty and finishes nice, without football patches.Merantti has delamination problems, probably due to the oils in the wood. And okoume has the rot resistance (as others have stated) of wet toilet paper.Okoume is classified as a non durable wood, and how in the world did they ever devise a non durable wood to be used to manufacture marine plywood out of, beats me. But it is pretty and does finish well, just may not last to long...

You have to give the guy credit for guts to say a thing like this in a world of okoume boat builders

(who me? stir the pot? never! 8) )

[Guest]

Depends and if, two of the biggests words in the dictionary

Debate on this item can range from who is doing the talking. We could log five or so pages on this, and probably not change anyones mind, and cause harm to either forces of evil, without looking at each and every case of known epoxy failure.

One big factor, I think, in so so many failures is due to the actual plywood being used from the big box stores. Another cause, ranking up to the top of the list, is delamination under epoxy and or glass, with water intrusion, in my experience, and not from just using epoxy. It will go back to the topic of improper workmanship, more than anything. People forget every detail of bedding in the haste and excitement of getting on the water near the ends of their projects. Don't go cheap on proper caulks, but use the appropiate stuff, keeping in mind the long term fixing requirments. Throughbolt and backing plates, when at all possible, goes a long ways in helping the longivity of your boat.

Heck, how many traditional wooden boats are not around because of improper workmanship, materials for caulking, maintainance and cheap woods used in construction, at the offset, and even storage long term? Remember, building methods are so different, calling for alternatives, weight and living on trailers, being the two issue in this boats. Be careful when mixing these examples represented from the WBF thread.

Doing it right the first time, saves long term for sure. It does require some knowledge. SO read all the appropiate stuff, while doing your projects. And do your preventative maintainance by tapping around sensitive areas. Learn the different "drumbeat" of voids, solid, and mush. FIx it now and not later.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

For the most part, any construction method other than traditional on the wooden boat forum is sub-standard. I would not debate the issue there...I have in the past and the threads got deleted. They are a bunch of dinosaurs. Listen to Graham and other designers of wood/epoxy boats.

[Tom Lathrop]

In their day, the Herreshoff's were on the leading edge of boatbuilding technology. In fact, they introduced much of it. Does anyone truly believe that they would not be doing the same if they were around today :?:

I'm a 3 digit member of the WB Forum and have gotten a lot of valuable information from it. There is much more acceptance of "our" methods now than several years ago. There are still luddites quick to pounce on epoxy if given the oportunity though and this thread contains several.

Like most such topics, this thread will lead to no clear conclusion. As old Herreshoff was fond of saying, you "dear reader" will have to make your own conclusions.

I have built about nine boats using epoxy as a ingredient for bonding and coating. All are doing well. Locally several hundred (mostly in Graham's Community College class) have been built with these techniques and there have been few problems. Almost all have been traceable to poor use of materials or technique. I have done major repairs on an epoxified boat that was poorly built though. Recently there was a large Piver trimaran in a local yard undergoing some major rot repair. In looking into the hulls, I saw that there were no (that's zero) limber holes in the frames and no (that's zero) provision for ventilation. I'm sure that some would pounce on this an example of epoxy failure. Draw your own conclusions. :roll:

Sometime in the near future I want to build a small lapstrake boat using more traditional methods but there will likely still be some epoxy in it.

[Guest]

Joe, I don't know if I would go that far as to say any method other than traditional is sub standard. Part of the bigger problem on any forum, is who participates in a discussion, and how much real experience each has in the methods, and the exact geographic location of the individual person. Heck, Pardy? I think is his name writes some of the most narrow minded stuff for boats in todays enviroment, that he could be labeled an extremist in views from some folks, including me here. Opinions change with the weather. But there is data and has always supported the plus and minuses of anything, depending on who is doing the reporting.

[Tom Lathrop]

Mike, First attempt at posting a photo of an epoxified boat.

[attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

[Guest]

You done good, But lets try this ,okay? :wink: Thats a grand old job, for a glueaholic!!!

[attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

[mustangermatt]

Dinasours? Ouch Actually there seem to be about an equal number of people arguing both sides of the question on their forum. And even a few holding the middle ground that it depends on usage etc.

Seems people are building the glued lap boats with epoxy only on the lap joints, no sheathing.

What caught my attention was the fact that most people I have interacted with on the forums will choose okoume ("non-durable"?), and even some on this forum are comparing wood weight and using the fact that one doesn't need to be glassed as evidence of additional weight/labor savings. So am I hearing that no epoxy encapsulation sounds like a recipe for a short lived boat?

[Tom Lathrop]

Mustang,

If we back off and say that we are talking only about epoxy coating, then the question can be easily addressed. In that case epoxy becomes just another kind of paint.

Many of us have found to our satisfaction that epoxy makes a tenacious, tougher and more waterproof coating than regular paint. If a fabric is added to the epoxy coating, the combination gets tougher still. It still needs protection from solar exposure and so we add some kind of paint or UV resistant varnish over the epoxy. The result is a superior sheath for things that live in or around the water.

Taking emotional attitudes out of it, it's a simple enough proposition. Lots of boats were built with or without plywood long before epoxy was invented so you don't have to use it in order to get a good boat. My opinion is that epoxy is a great product that will almost always add to the life of a boat so I will continue to use it.

[Charlie Jones]

Not so very long ago this exact subject came up in Professional Boatbuilder.

That resulted in the Gougeons submitting an article showing, and detailing the life history of, some of their early epoxy coated boats. Some of those boats are now approaching 30 years of age (or more) and in EVERY instance any problems was due to poor maintenance OR poor repairs being done due to later damage. The original epoxy coated structures that had been done properly and MAINTAINED properly were still going strong.

The trimaran that I built (and lived aboard back in the early 80s) has passed numerous surveys since and has NO delamination, coating failure, rot, whatever. Where the epoxy coating has not been damaged, she's in as good a condition as when I put her in the water 22 years ago.

I'm sorry but somebody is gonna have to prove otherwise to me before I believe epoxy coating is a poor way of building boats and that it won't last.

Sounds like narrow minded sour grapes to me. But then that's one of the reasons I don't visit the Woodenboat forums anymore.

[mustangermatt]

I am just finishing an epoxy coated cs 17 so I obviously have confidence in the building method.

But your point about maintanence brings up another question. Has it been the experience of those here that people who buy epoxy coated boats are less careful about maintanence in some misguided belief that the epoxy coating is indestructable?

[Barry Pyeatt]

To some extent yes! It depends a lot on the experience of the owner. I've had to repair a lot of boats over the years and I've not experienced a particular issue with epoxy coating marine plywood. Most repairs have been from rot and other damage from lack of maintenance until it becomes really noticable. Some owners seem to think it is going to be bullet proof just because it is epoxy coated. They don't seem to realize that epoxy can crack and leak just as any other finish can. When it gets impact damage, it will eventually have problems. I've also seen rot occur just as Oyster stated, simply because the builders cut corners or didn't think that anything would happen because the plywood was epoxy or epoxy/glass coated. They drill holes in it to attach things, to go thru hull and don't bother with proper sealants or treating the drilled out holes to prevent incursion of water.

I've also seen 25-30 years old epoxy coated marine ply that is in incredible shape. But it was done right and protected.

Hard to convince a first time wooden boat builder/owner that there will be maintenance issues and that it is truly worth it to caul/seal and provide adequate ventilation. It may not live in the water, but water will sure live in it when it is in the off season. Those that go thru freeze/thaw cycles have even a greater chance of potential damage. Just look at some of the repair photos that have been posted. That is the just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, an endless debate and regional in nature as well. Hard to be objective about positions when you are comparing apples and watermellons.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

I periodically read the Wooden Boat Forum but try not to post. There is a lot of good information available, but you need to know when to filter it.

The fact is that epoxy has been responsible for so many hobbyists to enter the world of boat building. The learning curve and tools necessary to build traditional laminated frame/planked hulls that most of us would never even start. We get the same satisfaction from building it ourselves as with any method of construction.

Oyster, I see you do post frequently on the WBF. I think you must be one of the more open minded people there. You should be the epoxy ambassador. LOL.

[Guest]

I periodically read the Wooden Boat Forum but try not to post. There is a lot of good information available' date=' but you need to know when to filter it.

The fact is that epoxy has been responsible for so many hobbyists to enter the world of boat building. The learning curve and tools necessary to build traditional laminated frame/planked hulls that most of us would never even start. We get the same satisfaction from building it ourselves as with any method of construction.

Oyster, I see you do post frequently on the WBF. I think you must be one of the more open minded people there. You should be the epoxy ambassador. LOL.[/quote']

First paragraph, correct, Second paragraph, correct, third paragraph is a history lesson. Thanks, but no thanks for the association now to that place. I must say, I was born at about the right time, the right time to learn enough from the old school, and learn enough that it would take advancements to survive in the industry of boats in the modern day era of boats. What would be considered the modern day era of boats?

Let me give you a little perspective and quick history of modern day construction in boats. Back a few years ago, :wink: boats were put together with wooden dowels. Then along came steel clinchnails, and even hand made screws , and it ain't been the same since.......

Wonder what those fellows on the Wooden Boat Forum, back around say, a couple of centuries ago, would have to say about those dang clinchnails?? HUH?? HUH??? Yea them dang fellas taking away our traditions,

Heck, lets just flame those guys and tar them with our pitch and terpentine, whatchu say?? Then we will just sit around the potbelly stove and smoke that hemp rope. 8) Dang fools ,they are, for not joining us modern radicals. :twisted:

[Guest]

Heck, didn't I post in the main section last night? One other thought on this, is that we could turn this into a matter of creation and evolution.

DO some of your guys remember Popular Mechanics and its plywood skiffs, that many old daddys would copy to get on the water? Heck, think about the construction methods of PT boats, laminated diagonal planking, with regards to strength, out of water properties, in regards to the old fellows on solid wooden hulls, planked longitual, limiting the industry to a number of designs. Look at those evolutionists such as Glen-L , you know the ones that made it simple to do a boat at home, storing boats on trailers in backyards, getting the whole family on the water, in lieu of buying those fancy varnished hulls, costing big bucks to own and a lot of work. How long has those guys been promoting rot?

I guess they will also will go by the way in the year 2004, from rotting out. inferior construction methods and materials, and wee may all revert back to the days of the only way of building. Man those folks building in plywood and guuppp, the privilaged folks for sure. Spend less and enjoy more, something that sounds pretty weird nowadays.

Creation and Evolution, sounds familiar?? :wink:

[Tom Lathrop]

Now, now, Mike,

Only one cup of coffee per morning.

[mustangermatt]

Maybe a little more consideration of service intended would be fair?

[Greg Luckett]

Depends and if' date=' two of the biggests words in the dictionary[/size']

Finally someone is using a font size that I can read

[mustangermatt]

Oysters post doesn't really address what I was thinking of. I will try to be be more concise.

All the tugs I worked on were either steel or very heavily constructed wood (VERY heavily constructed). This is a case were the more traditional plank on frame will way out perform anything we could put together with plastic and glass. On the other hand I don't want to try and pull that tug on a trailer with my wifes minivan either.

The real question I am asking is in the case of a small trailerable sail boat (like the coresound), is epoxy and glass over ply the best solution?

I know aluminium has been done (whatever happened with the "tin bin" anyway It came out heavy I think, as would steel in this size. Maybe double diagonal planked mahogany like the old chris's? Foam cored fiberglass? I have done some of that and it is easier than working with ply, but I hate doing it because it doesn't evoke the same feel as wood working.

Maybe thats the key. I like to work with the wood, so my next boat will be plank on frame, maybe?

whoops, sorry, started to cross over a little there. VIVA LA GOOGE!!

[mustangermatt]

Oh, sorry Greg...

VIVA LA GOOGE !!

There :-)