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Spindrift 10N Build - Two Bits


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Hello all,

 

Total boat building newb here, so I'm going to preemptively apologize for my naivete on the subject but looking forward to learning!

 

I love to learn things from the ground up so undoubtedly, I'm probably going to take the long route to completing this project.

 

So as the title suggests, I am building a Spindrift 10N and currently have my plywood and plans parked in the basement, but now I'm stalled...

 

Being a total novice, I turned to the internet in an attempt to find a work-around for the continuing B&B Epoxy outage, but there is a whole lot of truly conflicting information out there and I'm thoroughly confused.  What are suitable alternatives to the B&B epoxy?  Obviously there is WEST, but it's insanely expensive compared to other supposed competitors and well, price is a factor.  Since I plan to use the heck out of this boat, and literally the whole thing is held together by epoxy, what am I looking at/for?

 

I live in the "mountains" of north Georgia (for now) and am trying to source the balance of the solid stock lumber required for the project.  Is there any particular functional/structural disadvantage to using "poplar" (I use quotation marks since "poplar" in a lumber yard is like "pine" in that it can be one of several species of wood) for the framing bits?  We don't have a whole lot of other choices that fall in the weight/board-ft range of the fir/spruce recommended in the instructions.  Not to mention reliably provide relatively clear boards. 

 

Next up, the sail.  Has anybody made their own sail?  Is that even a thing people do?  I'm having a bit of trouble decoding the diagram but I'm pretty confident that it seems to be within my capabilities.  I'm not above buying a pre-fab one, but it seems like learning the basic ins and outs of making a sail might be useful skills to acquire for future adventures.  All of that being said, there doesn't appear to be a materials list or sufficient information on the diagram to construct one without some trial and error so if anybody has undertaken the challenge, I'd love to get some lessons learned advice. 

 

Finally, a hundred or so more questions are undoubtedly to follow.  I look forward to the adventure. 

 

Best Regards,

Dana

 

   

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Welcome to the forum and to boatbuilding!  No need to apologize for being a rookie; we were all there at one time.  Be forewarned— there is more than one way to skin a cat, so expect more than one suggestion/solution to your questions.

 

EPOXY

I have used MAS epoxy, System 3, and Raka.  All are good products, as is WEST.  If I were building today, I’d probably go with System 3, but I couldn’t tell you why.

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/resins-and-epoxies/epoxy-resin/mas-epoxy
 

 https://www.systemthree.com/search?q=General

 

http://www.raka.com

 

I live in the NC foothills (Tryon), and have the same lumber issues.  But the clear pine that is in Lowes and Home Depot is what most builders use.  That said, I have used Poplar on my last two boats.  It works well.  I don’t like the way it wears.  It shreds on the keel, tough.  I’ll use pine or ash there in the future.

 

I’d advise against making your own sail.  A good sail is a work of art and engineering.  It is the subtle shaping that provides a sail’s lift.  Buy a used Laser sail instead.  That said, Sailrite (https://www.sailrite.com/Sail-and-Canvas-Kits/Sails) has sailmaking kits.  And many boatbuilders make them out of poly tarps.  Google “poly tarp sails”, and you’ll get a good list.  Here’s one:  https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/polysail/index.htm

You’ll meed a good zig-zag sewing machine, a grommet maker, and sailor’s palm.  I’ve built many boats, but never a sail.

 

Good luck!

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THANK YOU SO MUCH!

 

That was a huge help.  

 

I hadn't thought about how the poplar would react to abrasion in an application like the keel.  I can definitely appreciate the advantage of something like a long grain pine in that application.  I will definitely look into a more hard wearing lumber for those sorts of pieces.  

 

So I came up with a couple more epoxy questions:

1) Is the "3 Gallon" number Resin including hardener or resin plus the appropriate amount of hardener? 

2) So basically I'm just looking for low viscosity "Marine" resin in 2:1 ratio?

 

-Dana

 

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6 hours ago, PiedTyper said:

I hadn't thought about how the poplar would react to abrasion in an application like the keel.  I can definitely appreciate the advantage of something like a long grain pine in that application.  I will definitely look into a more hard wearing lumber for those sorts of pieces.  

 

The keels on both my Spindrift and Lapwing have bronze solid half round chafe strip the entire length.  It is amazing how little damage is done to a boat with just this precaution.  SS hallow half round works well too.  Then it almost doesn't matter what you use so long as it hold fasteners well.  Poplar does.

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I'm pretty much in line with Thrillsbe's recommendations.  All the epoxies he mentions are good choices. I would go with MAS for the same reason he mentions:  not sure why, except that we've been using it at the volunteer shop where I work with good results.  It has very little if any blush to clean up, depending on the formula.  Their "economy kit" #3 might be of interest to you, since it includes thickeners and pumps as well as 2 gallons of resin.  https://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/boat-building-supplies-epoxy-fiberglass-plywood/marine-epoxy-fiberglass/mas-epoxy-kit-economy-3.html

 

Sailrite makes good kits.  I've made a couple.  A home sewing machine suffices, but a canvas machine is much easier.  If you use a home machine, take your time and do some practicing.  I'm not sure of the price diffences between a kit and a sail ordered from Graham or one of the other suppliers.  It may not be that great, i.e., may not be worth the frustration.  But your sail will be ok if you order it from Sailrite and take your time.

 

The "southern pine" that Grant used to make the shipping container in which he sent my kit was pretty good stuff.  I actually used some of it in my boat.  In other words, living where you do, heed Thrillsbe's advice to look through the big box piles and you're likely to find some usable sticks, or sticks from which you can rip what you need.  Up north here in Wisconsin, our big boxes have "fir" and "white lumber", which can be just about anything, many knots included.  There is also pricey "clear pine" from New Zealand, of all places, which is very nice but expensive and not always straight.  That southern pine seems quite the thing, by comparison.

 

Good luck to you.  Keep asking questions.

 

--pb

CoreSound 17

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I think it's possible to get a good drawing sail yourself, but I'm with Thrillsbe on that subject. By the time you buy the materials, it's about as cheap to buy one and the B & B sails are great. As for the keel, both Skeena and Suzy J have White Oak keels. Tough as nails, closed cell wood great for this application. The rub is that being closed cell they don't glue great, but I have a cheap blade for my table saw with a bent tooth. It makes a great glue surface and I've never had a problem.  The rest of the boats bits are SYP from lowes, like Paul said, culled from sorting over many visits. It's light, and in the type of use these boats get good enough.  Have fun with your build. I'm taking my 11N out this morning for Father's day!

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4 hours ago, Steve W said:

. As for the keel, both Skeena and Suzy J have White Oak keels. Tough as nails, closed cell wood great for this application. The rub is that being closed cell they don't glue great, 

If it is dry, and the mating surfaces are scuffed and cleaned, epoxy will glue it just fine. Teak and White Oak have bad names because they require a little attention and some don't give it. So we all get to listen about their failures without knowing the whole story. Just like everything, it is in the prep.

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Thrillsbe:

lol who would'a thought!  I am truly appreciative of your generosity in sharing (name) space for us.  The amount of agonizing the whole house went through over names is not an exercise that I'm looking to repeat any time soon!

 

Everyone else, thank you so much for the input and encouragement!  I'm pretty stoked about this project and can't wait until its taking up all the free space in the basement.

 

So while we're on the subject of protecting the bottom.  I ultimately plan to use this boat as a tender for my eventual cruising vessel.  Of course that is dependent on learning to sail the dinghy first haha!  At any rate, obviously the life of a trainer and a tender is hard and involves a lot of beaching on less than optimal ground.  I vaguely remember reading somewhere about an optional single layer of fiberglass cloth over the entire bottom (or any portion thereof), in addition to the tape on keel and chines. To me it seems like it could add a substantial amount of weight but it might go a long way towards the long term durability of the boat.  Do you all have any thoughts on the subject or is this a reasonably unfounded concern and I should just go with the plywood as-is?  That being said, is putting a sacrificial layer of glass tape over the finished keel (like on a canoe) an option in lieu of a chafe strip? (I just looked at the shipping charges to order it lol)

 

In other news, I just got done giving the ole' debit card a workout: 

epoxy (Raka: I went with it because i could get the resin with a gallon of fast AND a gallon of slow hardener for the same price as the System Three which was second place.  Yes I have too much hardener now, but I can fine tune the mix for the thin bits AND the thick bits.), fillers (Cell-o-fill, cabosil, phenolic microballoons, and graphite [for the cast in place rudder pivot bushing]), glass tape, mast tubes, rigging hardware (plus a few spares of critical bits), stainless fasteners, stainless oarlocks & sockets.

 

Still on my to-get list:

Board Lumber - Yeah, still debating this one.  I made tentative stops at the local lumber yards and at this point I'm leaning towards a mix of lumber since it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find one variety of clear wood in all the sizes i need.  Suitable materials that I found reasonably local are: Cypress, Poplar, (unspecified) Fir, Yellow Pine, Red Cedar, White Cedar, Eastern White Pine, and (unspecified) Spruce.  The lumber for the gunwales seems like it might be the tricky one to sort out.... 

Running Rigging - Does anybody happen to have measurements of what their finished lines were/are for a 10 with the end boom sheeting setup?  

Sheet Metal - Obviously i need the small snippet of metal for the mast step rigging base plate, and I'm planning to add a couple pieces to the transom so that the intermittent use of an outboard won't destroy my transom.  Are there any other places that you all wish you would have added a bit of extra metal?  I was thinking perhaps a top plate or a top and bottom plate for the mast collar?  It seems like that might be something that could be toast in a heartbeat with the leverage of an un-seated mast while assembling the rigging the middle of a rough anchorage.

Sail - I know I know, its not the preferred method to make your own, but it sure does seem like an interesting project, I do happen to have a sewing machine that breezes through heavy canvas, leather, and upholstery fabric 4-5 layers at a time, and I also have a walking foot patcher stitcher that I use for leather work.  I'm not too concerned about not having the appropriate equipment, my concern is having the right design/measurements.  That being said, that Sailrite kit looks to be just the ticket, and perk is that I would be able to pattern from the pieces and make future sails when i inevitably destroy the first one.  The only catch is that their kit doesn't appear to have a mast sleeve zipper included...  I emailed them to ask about it, no reply yet but I suspect that adding a zipper might not be a huge deal if i just re-cut a new mast sleeve with the additional material added for the seam allowances.

Navigation Lights - Do you all just use the flashlight jobbies for night time operations?  I'm thinking about integrating some LED nav-lights into the gunwales, and maybe a couple red LED deck lights on the underside of the boom or perhaps on the inside of the gunwales about where the oarlock sockets mount.  Has anybody gone down this path?  Any advice or opinions?

 

....and breath....

 

THANKS AGAIN!

-Dana

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dana,

Regarding nav lights, this is what I use.

https://duckworks.com/portable-led-navigation-bow-lights/

 I don’t use them often, so it does not make sense to spend a lot of money on them.  They work great.  And there’s a white one for the stern.  They go on the bow and the stern.  Anything else, such as the boom, is purely decorative.  Most of the time, they’re stowed out of the way.

 

For a motor mount sacrificial plate, I use 4mm okoume.  Metal will be too slippery.  You can also buy rubber products made for this purpose.

BA2EA9F1-3FEE-4C0D-92DF-059B59AB3A80.thumb.jpeg.3dbf99f459ee0412b29e03ac96dc127e.jpeg3F0859FE-68F9-49E8-97DF-2AEC7094B814.thumb.jpeg.53676508908f59e6e3270ecb569459bf.jpeg

I just added a sacrificial strip of hard Ash to my keel.  Needs paint.

8434006B-95B6-4368-85A5-09B1454D1BD9.thumb.jpeg.b19aacce5eb1f40e0eeb895a96308f6f.jpeg

 

On my boats, I lace the sail permanently to the mast with line or velcro.  To stow the sail, I wrap it around the mast.  I sacrifice reefing ability for this.  In my pram, If conditions are that blustery, I don’t go out. The lacing is visible in the tail end of this video.  



More comments will follow from others, especially regarding wear and lumber.  But sounds like you’re off to a good start.

 

Don

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4 hours ago, Captain Tim said:

"Yes I have too much hardener now, but I can fine tune the mix for the thin bits AND the thick bits."

Not a good idea to change the formula for epoxies.

So to this point, Raka's literature says specifically that the fast and slow hardeners are compatible and that they can be mixed "to customize working characteristics and cure times" so long as the ratio of Resin:Hardener remains the same.  Is there some other reason that might be a misrepresentation or oversimplification?  I've been the victim of believing the instructions before so I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was something like "Yes, but if you mix the hardeners, the resulting pot has a melting point of 88 degrees.".

 

 

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Re: Scarf Joints

 

Hey, off the top of your collective heads, does anyone know the angle at which the plywood should be tapered for a proper scarf joints?  The number 15 is what comes to my mind but I've got absolutely no recollection where I would have gotten such a number from...

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With scarfs the longer the better.

Usual minimum recommendation is 8 to 1, though some advise 12 to 1.

I’ve used 8 to 1 with no problems in the past.

Cheers

Peter HK

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23 minutes ago, Peter HK said:

With scarfs the longer the better.

Usual minimum recommendation is 8 to 1, though some advise 12 to 1.

I’ve used 8 to 1 with no problems in the past.

 

I used 8:1 for the staves of my birdsmouth masts and the 5 pieces that make up each rub rail, for many stringers on SoF kayaks and umpteen other applications and no issues.

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In other words, don't use a protractor, or try measuring the angle.  If you are going to make an 8:1 scarf on 6mm plywood, start with the math:

 

6 x 8 = 48

 

Mark the top board with a mark 48 mm from the end.  Space the remaining boards 48 mm (or 2 inches) apart, and plane them until all the bands that define the plys of the panels are straight and even.   P1050765.thumb.JPG.f1bbde988d0e9c238133ae45b68479a8.JPG

 

P1050763.thumb.JPG.51d8799d8b7236aef6cbb150972d1ff5.JPG

In this photo, I'm half done.  I need to keep planing until those big gaps between the boards are gone, and it is one smooth surface.  You should get something that looks like this:P1050766.thumb.JPG.c0d7a4225db530b5dca96dee41bda45e.JPG

 

 

Note:  the photos were of 4mm plywood, which looks a little different than 6mm.

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To add a little more about scarfs from the chapter on scarfing in the Gougeon brother's book:

 

"In many boatbuilding situations,
we use a ratio of 8-to-1 to determine the size of the
bevel, so that a 1" (25mm) thick board will have a
bevel 8" (200mm) long. When high-density, highstrength
wood is used in a critical area, a mast for
example, 12-to-1 proportions may be required. For
extra strength and safety, we increasingly recommend
12-to-1 scarfs for lumber."

 

They routinely recommend 8 to 1 for ply. 

Cheers

Peter HK

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