Jump to content

Fishman38

fishman38 OK20

Recommended Posts

I am in the late stages of deciding whether or not to build Ocracoke 20 and am presently about 95% sure that I will (build it) or at least make the attempt. I will receive the OK20 plans in a few days.   Although I've owned one boat or another most of my life, most of which were aluminum, all outboard powered, I've never built one of any type and wanting to build one I guess you could say is sort of a "bucket list" thing.  I did work a little with fiberglass way back in the day not long after the stuff was invented.  Many changes(improvements?) since then I imagine?  Anyway, I'm sure the reader can guess that I've got a lot to learn about the craft of boat building.  My reason for starting this thread is to pose the questions that come to mind as I follow the other threads, read the books (Chappelle, and Gorgeon Brothers), study the plans and proceed with the project.  I realize that Graham makes himself available to help his builders and will go to him when necessary but maybe this way will save him a few emails and phone calls.  A couple of such questions follow:

 

I suspect that most of you folks active in these forums live at or near sea level.  I live at 6500 ft elevation.  Does anyone know whether there are altitude issues that should be taken into account when working with fiberglass.  In one of the comments today in another thread there was a mention of "outgassing".  If that's a problem at sea level it must be a bigger problem at this altitude.

 

Is there an Ideal temperature or temperature range for FG/ epoxy work?  I imagine the instructions that come with the products will cover this but any comments would be welcome and helpful.

 

(I realize that I'm a long way from needing answers to these particular questions but am thinking that maybe when the question comes up down the road I'll have a go-to reference for a quick easy answer)

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't answer any questions on altitude. Most brands of epoxy are different, and each have their own instructions. Which ever you choose, follow their instructions. I am using West System, which is a Gougeon Bros product. The temp. range is in their manual and has to be followed to avoid problems. I am using a fast hardener now and my building is running about 55 degrees f. This works well for me and allows enough open time (before the epoxy starts to kick off or gel) to get things done. I may switch to a slow hardener this summer if temps get high enough. Make sure you measure your mix correctly, I'm using pumps. Make sure you keep an accurate count of strokes if you use pumps and never try to use more hardener to speed up the cure. If you forget how many pumps of resin, just stop and pour it back in the container, clean up and start over. If your adding hardener and forget. Discard it.

Just read the manual or instructions and follow them. I'm sure someone else will chime in with some good tips. The Ocracoke is a pretty boat and I'm sure you will do fine. Enjoy your build

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you go . . .

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

Go to "how to use" and "user guide". User guides are available via download under "how to guides" under "products". Also available as a download, "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction" which is often refereed to as the "Bible".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also thought Devlin's stitch and glue book was great for me when I started using epoxy. I also learned the hard way about a bad batch of epoxy on the rudder of my first boat. Since then after the hardener was added I've done as mentioned above, pitched it out if I lost count.

2 to 1 helps keep things simpler, but also just stay focused when measuring out the batch, don't talk to anyone or pay attention to anyone around you, just get it in the cup. A lot of 2 to 1 epoxies have an about a 10 to 20% error factor and will still harden, but they are not at their best then.

On larger batches such as wetting out the glass, forget the pumps and use good measuring cups in the quart or half gallon sizes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hokeyhydro, I had the Gougeon book on order and it arrived yesterday about the same time as your post.  It is going to be my "bible" for boat building.  I visited the West Systems website and it too will be will be an invaluable source, especially the videos.  The guy who said "a picture is worth a thousand words" had it right and he didn't even know about videos!  Make it ten thousand words.

 

The answer is probably in there somewhere but I haven't stumbled on it yet:  one is advised to work with small batches of epoxy.  One question that comes to mind is: When applying FG fabric to a large area such as the bottom, must I plan to finish the stem to stern and chine to keel area for example in one continuous operation i.e. don't let one small area of epoxy cure before overlapping the next and continue until a natural boundary such as transom, keel, stem and/or chine?  I hope this makes sense it's a little hard to put in words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input Scot.  Your's too Hokiehydro.  Scot, I'm trying to follow your 28' thread but since my only experience is with power boats the sailing lingo stumps me at times.  I have to keep a boating glossary handy :wacko:

You almost had me with "tabernacle"! 

 

Your tips are well taken, especially about counting pump strokes and forgetting the pump for larger batches. (with my ADD and all)  Just joking about the ADD but I know that can be a problem.  I always wondered how anyone could make the card counting scheme work for them in blackjack. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes to part of your question about finishing from bow to stern. But that doesn't mean that you cant do one side completely with the overlapping of the bow and center line of the keel. Then do the other side the next day within 8 or ten hours if your using slow hardener, which I always use for wetting out. The exception to this would be if the temperature is in the 80's or higher. The slow hardener gives me two major benefits, first more working time with the big job at hand of wetting out the glass and chasing dry spots, you will have some dry spots because the epoxy is soaking deeper into the wood. Then second benefit that a lot of folks don't consider, it gives the epoxy more time to soak deeper into the wood before starting to kick off.

 

You don't have to worry about out gassing to much on simple joints, but larger areas that's a big time difference. When I glassed my Candice 28 I started late in the afternoon as the sun was setting, put a fan to pull the cooler air from outside. By the time we were finished glassing I had not seen very many out gassing bubbles and only two small air entrapment's the size of a dime. The building had dropped in temperature from the 80's to the low 60's when we finished. Out gassing is serious, if left untended it can make a path for the wood to pull water into your hull and trap it between the epoxy encapsulation.

 

 

Its not rocket science, just follow a few simple rules and all will go well. Some epoxies have a very strong Oder and some do not. I have tried many brands and keep coming back to Raka 127 resin and their hardeners. I have never had any blush that I could feel using Raka. But I always assume that there must be some and wash it down anyway. I have had some epoxy that after it cured it had so much blush it was as if I took a pound of bacon and rubbed the whole hull down.

 

You are going to get many opinions on epoxy brands and techniques. I have used around 75 gallons of epoxy on the boats I've built. I'm just telling you what has worked for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good stuff Scott.  I do however question how much epoxy soaks into wood, whether slow hardener means it soaks in more, or whether it even matters if it does soak in. One of the great things about expoxy is the strength of the bond to other materials, even metals.  And I am sure there is little soaking into metals  ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave I'm sure on plywood the epoxy cant get past the first glue line of the ply. But on my 28 I thought the cypress would never stop sucking the stuff up. But that is the nature of cypress very porous. But for sure the longer the stuff stays thin before starting to kick the more the wood would have to absorb. We may not be talking that much more, but the deeper it gets the more wood fibers it bonds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In one of the comments today in another thread there was a mention of "outgassing".  If that's a problem at sea level it must be a bigger problem at this altitude.

Is there an Ideal temperature or temperature range for FG/ epoxy work?  I imagine the instructions that come with the products will cover this but any comments would be welcome and helpful.

Jerry

AFAIK - it's more about temperature changes during the cure cycle than it is about altitude.

The out-gassing that wood boat builders experience is 'usually' experienced with plywood that is heating up due to direct sunlight or even rising temps in the shop during the work day. The wood getting warmer does cause the air in the ply to expand, causing very small bubbles in the uncured epoxy - especially harmful when glassing as it seems harder to fill those microscopic holes effectively.

Definitely a good practice to keep you ply stored in the warmest place you have available. Whenever I expected to have a large quantity of coating or glassing on large surface areas I would definitely plan on laying out the ply during the day so that it warms while i work on other things - than wait til late in the day or early evening when the temps are already dropping off before beginning to coat or glass any plywood.

Remember the rule - pictures, pictures, pictures

See post at http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8454-blisters/?p=72816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do small boats up to 16' but for a larger craft I would enlist helpers to do the glass wetting to get it done in one furious epoxy fest. Or as Scott suggested, do one side then the other. The pour and distribute with a squeegee method is quite fast. I like a roller on more vertical surfaces, but for anything sort of flat, as in flat enough the epoxy doesn't sprint away from the pour and head for the floor, the squeegee is the plan. You may spend more time mixing batches of epoxy than spreading it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom I saw that post and doing the coating and glassing when temps are falling shouldn't be a problem for me.  I live in the afternoon shadow of Pikes Peak.  The sun dips behind PP around 3 or 4 in the afternoon even in the summer and when it does the temperature drops rapidly.  So I will have 6 or 8 hours of falling temperatures to work and still get to bed by around midnight.  Also I will be working in a well insulated, heated garage/workshop in which the temperature can be made to remain fairly stable.  Given that the outgassing process is as you describe it should not be much of a problem. 

 

BTW, due to prior commitments I will not be starting building 'til toward the end of March but when I do there will be pictures if I can figure out how to post them on here.  In fact I may practice by posting a picture of the thirty-two year old aluminum  john boat the OK20 will be replacing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops, forgot about the picture of the john boat.  Running short on time but will try to do it before heading south. 

I've studied the plans and ordered the frame kit to be delivered around March 20, got most of the prep work done in my workshop, so I will be starting the build toward April first.  Now if I can just find a source to buy decent lumber for jig, stringers etc.  Hard to find a straight piece of lumber at Home Depot, Lowes and the like.  Most of the good lumber stores are no more in these parts, thanks to Lowes, Home Depot and the like. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want a low maintenance, small fresh water lake (pond maybe) or  river fishing boat, flat bottom aluminum is the way to go.  In large high mountain lakes when those fast moving mountain squalls come through, not so much.  Therefore I'll be saying goodbye to my 32 year old flat bottom after this fishing season and hoping to have my Ocracoke 20 ready for spring 2014! 

 

BTW, if I had known I was going to need the picture in front of the house because the one in the workshop turned out so dark, I'd have moved the garbage bag out of the way, closed the garage door and asked my lovely wife to dress and fix her hair!

 

post-2179-0-08388600-1360457641_thumb.jpg

 

post-2179-0-07492300-1360457635_thumb.jpg

 

Also BTW, I realize not many of you are interested in my old fishing boat;  I'm just trying to learn how to post pictures so I can do it right when I get started building OK20 ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sam Devlin's book is a real good introduction to most boats we build on the forum. I think it's a must for the first time builder.

 

I wish Graham had time to write a stitch and glue book, from all his experience. It would be a great resource to sell with his first time building customers. Also with him also working with woodenboat school, I'm sure it could be sold in their book store also. Not a complete building book, just epoxy stitch and glue basics, with keel build up, small lead shoe keel pours, plywood choices, chemical bonds, secondary bonds, butterfly techniques, etc. I have talked to Graham on my trips to NC for hours on end sometimes and his knowledge and experience is always amazing to me. So Graham write us a book and I want the first copy, autographed of course. 

 

My son and grand kids may want to build a boat one day and I would love them to have your thoughts and experiences with small sound building techniques at their fingertips, long after we are gone.

 

Scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Fishman38,

 

Looks like your dog knows how to pose for pictures.

 

Regarding epoxy at altitude. I am at about 5600 ft altitude in Aurora, CO and do not think there are any issues with altitude for epoxy. I have built 2 stitch and glue boats and my only issue was lack of skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Terry.  That lack of skill issue is one I'm going to have to learn to deal with on the job.  A little scary.

 

The dog is jj , my german shorthair pointer.  Didn't notice that she was in there.  She's a publicity hound so to speak.  Likes the limelight!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frame kit to be shipped today hopefully delivered Friday or Monday.  Tomorrow I will finally drive the first nail/screw in my OK20 project with the building & leveling of the strongback, installing a baseline and casters which I plan to be crudely "retractable". Thought I would use something like 1/16" aircraft cable for the baseline.  The Gougeon book mentions tensioning the baseline cable to several hundred pounds.  hmmmm 1/16 inch aircraft cable is rated at 96 lbs and is $0.69/ft at my local Ace Hdwe.  $15 for a 20 ft wire?   I may look further.  I know, but it's the principle of the thing..........  Comments?

 

Have found a local source for all the plywood except 4mm Okoume for the topsides.  May have to have that shipped in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.