converting to sail track

[Randy Jones]

I'm considering converting my CS17 from laced sails to sail track in order to simplify the reefing process.  The laced sails perform fine and the lacing looks great on the solid wood masts but reefing the mainsail is a chore while underway, especially with hands that don't work well in the cold. These mast are laminated from 5 layers of doug fir and tappered on the upper portions to accommodate bending in wind gusts.  I can't image the mast ever breaking, but they sure do bend.

I'm wondering if a stainless steel sail track will flex along with the mast. Would some of you experienced with sail track provide your opinion?  Thanks 

[Dale Niemann]

My CS17 mast is alum except for top 6 feet which is birdsmouth fir.  The ss track seems to flex with the mast without any problems so far at least.

Dale

[John Turpin]

Price sail track before you go much further down this path. Ouch.

[Randy Jones]

I found a 12 foot length of 5/8" stainless steel sail track today and discovered that it is much more flexible than I anticipated.  Not inexpensive, at about $90 for 12 linear feet of track.  I'm going ahead with it on the mainsail anyway with the justification that the need to reef easily is a safety issue.  Seems that I can also go back to lacing if it doesn't work out.  Thanks for your comments. 

[Guest wwbaginski]

I,m going to glue on plastic (carbon actually) tracks on my wooden masts. This is the producer:

http://www.vandusenracingboats.com/

[Randy Jones]

Interesting.  I didn't see anything about sail track on the referenced web site. Please post a photo let and us know how it works out. 

[Guest wwbaginski]

In fact there's no info on tracks, please contact directly here:

customerservice@vandusenracingboats.com

I've not been glued them on my masts yet, beacause I'm still hoping to sail this November again. Tracks are planned as a winter project. I,ve got them by post, cut into pieces about 1.5 m long each, total length 15.3 m in cost 120 $. They can post in a coil of the right length form too but it was too expensive to me (i'm in Europe).

Plastic slugs (only 1.5 $ each) I've got from my friend do fit to the tracks perfectly. He is a succesfull user of the system, in Sweden. He glued tracks with a polyurethane glue to carbon masts, but he said no problem with wooden masts .

Here is my track photographed:

[Guest wwbaginski]

as Doppio is dismasted for winter, I started tests on carbon tracks. First step on photos: I glued two pieces with a steel rod inside , of the same diameter as the slug is. next day  the rod has been pushed out with a slug. the method is ok, the slug passes the joint very smoothly.

Next step, a strengt test, later.

[Randy Jones]

That looks pretty good.  I was hoping you would do a test.  If your glue test passes, I think I will use the carbon fiber sail track instead of the stainless steel.  Thanks for doing the dirty work.

[tom151]

...friend did this...

wwb,

If you have (or can get specifics) of Mfr/Part# that your friend used - would you please pass it on.

Thx,

[Hirilonde]

He is a succesfull user of the system, in Sweden. He glued tracks with a polyurethane glue to carbon masts, but he said no problem with wooden masts .

I am curious why he used polyurethane glue?  Most carbon composite built components are made with epoxy resin, why not use epoxy?

One of the drawbacks of carbon fiber rigging is UV damage.  Because it is made with epoxy resins protection is needed.  Do you have any info on the tracks and UV protection?

Please continue to update us on your results using the carbon fiber tracks.  As the price of carbon composites comes down it will become a more and more viable option for many things.

[Guest wwbaginski]

this is the glue we used:

[Palolo Hawaii]

Perhaps his track was made from extruded black ABS and not actual CF? This supplier in NZ also recommends Sikaflex for their plastic track: http://www.c-tech.co.nz/shop/Our+Products/Sail-track.html

(They've got small boat track in ABS for NZ$11/metre, too)

I've also seen a skiff mast being repaired, and they bonded their true carbon track using 2-part Plexus adhe$ive. The tube has a mixing nozzle to blend both parts as it is squeezed out.

pat.

[Guest wwbaginski]

pat., yes you're right, this is how they have answered my question today:

"The sail track is not Carbon Fiber. It is an extruded black ABS " luff track #3".

It gets attached to your mast with an glue like strong adhesive that comes in a tube we use "Plexus".

Please let us know how else we can help.  They can contact us directly if your would want..

-Aliisa"

[Hirilonde]

Ah, ABS is an entirely different animal.  It is UV resistant by itself.  I never thought of it being rigid enough for something like a sail track, but obviously it is, at least for small boats.  Plexus is obscenely strong, but slightly brittle.  It etches into the plastic as well as works as an adhesive. 

[Guest wwbaginski]

I made test #3. The plastic tank containing 30 l of water (what makes 30 kG) has been lifted . No problem in the Sikaflex layer. Is anyone able to count how much load can be generated on the luff of a CS or BRS mainsals by wind, say up to Force 5? A load per slug can be calculated then.

[Docpal]

In the past I have used Sikaflex to hang a door without any other mechanical fasteners! We just coated the hinges with it, and wedged it in place until it set...We also used  Sikaflex to build some quick/dirty rowboats one year for our family boat building event at the Toms river, NJ boat show. It's great stuff because it has a fast tack, and is tenacious ( which is also it's only down side as you NEED to have some  "orange goop" ready to get it off of you when you get a little too enthusiastic with it's use...). I've always preferred it over the 5200 stuff ...

[Palolo Hawaii]

I made test #3. The plastic tank containing 30 l of water (what makes 30 kG) has been lifted . No problem in the Sikaflex layer. Is anyone able to count how much load can be generated on the luff of a CS or BRS mainsals by wind, say up to Force 5? A load per slug can be calculated then.

W,

My butt-calculator guess is that the track will deform and release a slug before it pulls away from the mast, purely based on the slug directly loading up a small concentrated area of the track/groove, but the track itself being able to spread that load along a longer area of its glued interface with the mast.

Using that same unscientific analytic device, I would say that the sail's clew (or the sprit-boom) will show signs of strain (or you'll be reefing/running for cover by then) before a slug pops out of the groove, purely based on the guess that the sail's pulling is concentrated on one corner vs. spread amongst a number of slides along the luff.

Can't wait to see your project photos, and of course see the on-the-water evidence/proof of the system's benefits. I guess we just need to wait til June for the icebergs to leave your waters?  :-?

Docpal: I have to keep Sikaflex in mind more often... I think it would be hilarious to have some hollow core doors in our house affixed without screws of any sort. I'd tell guests that we use steel joists and rare earth magnets to save on screws.  :-P

My toddler son also thought he'd play monkey and swing from the doorknob of his room, pulling the top hinge screws out of the jamb, so sikaflex will indeed be used soon.

Cheers,

pat.

[Hirilonde]

Sika, like 3M makes an extensive line of adhesive sealants.  They vary greatly in properties and intended applications.  They vary greatly in tensil strength.  Please reference which product you are using when presenting your findings and opinions.  It matters a lot.  Both Sika and 3M make products with tensil strengths from 150 psi to over 700 psi.  Personally I like the Sika products over 3M as well.  The consistency is much more user friendly in process. 

Sikaflex 291-LOT is my favorite adhesive bedding for hardware.  It is reasonably strong but items can be removed with no damage if care is taken. 

[Guest wwbaginski]

1. bearing balls glued in mast foots meke the rotation VERY easy:

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/index.php?topic=7126.0

2. plastic tracks and slugs do cooperate nicely , no doubt the tracks are stong enough. Reefin and unreefing underway became much easier - no need to pull the sprist off the masts wne rising or lowering the sails.

3. alu tubes laminated on lower mast parts made them stiffer and the mast curve starts above the sprits now.