Dreaming about a sailing trip

[Noklin]

We have been talking about retiring in Belize in a few years. Looking at an atlas got me to wondering if anyone had made a long distance open water passage in a CS 20.

According to several sources the government travel restriction on travel to Cuba will be lifted soon. The trip from Key West to Cuba is only about a 90 mile open water passage. If you follow the Cuban coast about 200 miles to the west end you would have an open water passage of about 110 miles to Mexico. Not sure what the prevailing winds are during the winter months in these areas, but each of these open water passages could be done in one day if the winds were right. Following the Mexican coast southward to Belize would be about another 200 miles. I am guessing that the total trip would be about 600 miles.

Since there would be no schedule to keep you could wait on the perfect weather to make any leg of the trip. With an experienced 2 man crew, a sound boat and a small outboard motor with adequate fuel supply in case the wind did not cooperate, would anyone consider this trip in a CS 20.

[PeterP]

You and me are watching the same channel. I played it safe and went an extra 8' on the boat. PeterP

[JeffM]

90 miles is 18hrs at at average of 5mph course made good.  If everything goes exactly right.  And you don't have to spend any time at either end getting away from or into port, etc.  I would never count on being able to do that in one day.  I have no idea what winds are like down there, but around here I don't trust the meteorologists to get much right--except maybe the times of sunrise and sunset.  (When winds actually arrive from the forecast direction at the forecast speeds, I picture those guys breaking out the champagne.)  On a decent day (winds peaking 5-10), I've found I can count on making 3-4kt course made good as a daily average--less with all windward work.  I definitely can't picture doing 90mi myself.

[Ken_Potts]

  I've never crossed open ocean in an open sailboat (or a big sailboat) so I don't know what I'm talking about.

  Try shorter trips first.  Get to know the boat, the area and yourself well.  It may be only 90 miles to Cuba but it's against the prevailing wind and current isn't it?  There are plenty of stories about people floating over FROM cuba in leaky, overloaded rowboats but there are also plenty of stories that will never be told because the people never made it and they were traveling with the prevailing wind and current.

  Talk to people who've done the trip in a similar boat - If there aren't any that should be informative.  It is my personal (untested) opinion that my CS17 would make it if the conditions were right.  Then again a Sunfish would make it if the conditions were right - And a destroyer won't make if if the conditions aren't right.  The longer you're out there the more chance there is that the forecast will be wrong.

  I've thought about doing a trip to the Bahamas in my CS17 but so far I don't have the guts to actually try it even though I know it can be done in a reasonably safe manner.

  Check out microcruising.com - I'm not endorsing any boat or technique but that website belongs to people who actually have done the things I'm pretending to have an (unexpert) opinion about.

  And have a long talk with Graham - He's sailed open ocean and he designed the boat (and he's a nice guy and fun to talk to).  If he thinks there's a better boat for the trip than a CS20 he'll probably tell you.

[Docpal]

It's usually not the winds, it's the Gulf Stream that gives people "issues"...Coming FROM Cuba it's in your favor, going South, it can really build up with a contrary wind. While I was running my salvage business down there a few guys even "sailed" up from Cuba and got within a few miles of the local reef by building a raft, and then"McGyvering" an outboard motor for it from a gas powered weed whacker! They replaced the cutting cord with a propeller they built out of a beer can.....SO a well sailed boat, in the right weather pattern should be able to make it.

In fact I'm thinking it might be time to get back into the salvage business as soon as they "reopen" access to Americans because there's going to be a LOT of people who have NO business leaving the marina , but they'll have all sorts of sales guys selling them "Havana hot rods"...

[Ken_Potts]

  I forgot to include that I think the CS20 would be a fantastic boat to sail in shallow Caribbean waters and if I lived in that environment the Core Sound would be my sailboat of choice (I live near shallow waters, just not so clear and tropical, and the CS is still my boat of choice).  I can't tell you how fun it is to sail across a flat, wave at the cruisers who are restricted to the 6 foot deep anchorage and pull the boat up on the beach to camp for the evening.

  If you want a CS20 but you decide it's not the boat for the trip down you could always build it, ship it down to Belize and sign on as crew on a bigger boat that was headed down that way.  Then you'd be able to sail open ocean on your way to your new home and you'd have a delightful boat for exploring Belize but once you're in your new home waters you wouldn't be encumbered with a blue-water cruiser that is restricted to deep water.  The best boat for local cruising when you're there is not the best boat for getting there.  But then I'm a chicken by nature.  There are plenty of people who are more adventurous than I am and They have more fun than I do  

  However you do it you've got me all fired up - I love to dream about exactly the kind of adventure that you are actually investigating.  :cool:

  I'm looking forward to visiting you in your new home

[Noklin]

My CS 20 should be getting its paint job soon prior to its final turnover. Hoping to have it in the water late next spring.

Its another 6 years to retirement, so I will have plenty of time to learn the boat, research the winds and currents and try to figure out what else it would take to make a trip like this with a good (90%) chance of making it. One thing to keep in mind is that nothing is ever 100% safe. It

[John Turpin]

Interesting topic.  You'd have to very carefully pick your weather window, that's for sure.  Other than the normal issues of seas and wind and traffic, it seems like open boats have some additional concerns.  A squall in the Gulf Stream could get interesting.  An open boat can ship a lot of water, so it might be wise to take up some of that cockpit space--maybe with some flotation bags.  You'd also better have a way to pump out water quickly.

I'm sure others have prepared open boats for passages, so there are probably some good ideas out there.

[Tom Lathrop]

The Atlantic has been crossed in boats less suited to the task than a CS.  A Wayfarer, for instance.  16' I think and a sloop, which is not as forgiving as a cat ketch.  You guys must be young if you haven't read "Tinkerbelle".  A 13' Old Town sloop that crossed the Atlantic, sailed by a guy who learned how to sail after he launched into the ocean.  The sailing is not recommended, but the book is.

Still, crossing from Cuba to Belize is not to be taken lightly.  There be dragons.

[ChrisObee]

It would be an adventure to be sure.  I'm kind of wimpy I guess cause a 10% chance of not making a 100 mile passage is in my view an unacceptable risk.  I wouldn't venture on it untill I could figure a low single digit risk.  One in ten isn't my idea of a vacation. 

[Joel B]

You didn't say why you are choosing the Cuba route.  Is it the romantic notion of sailing in Cuba?  I am building my 20 to sail the west coast of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez.  I wouldn't hesitate to sail the west coast and trailer it across the southern part of Mexico to Yucatan.  I am not familiar with the Gulf side but  from what Docpal said it sounds like the currents would not be favorable.  I have driven and hauled trailers all over Mexico and I wouldn't hesitate to trailer it to Yucatan.  Of course that is not nearly as romantic as sailing it to Cuba

Joel

[Noklin]

I live in south florida and have a CS 20. When we retire to Belize I can ship the boat with the rest of the house hold goods or sail it there. The shortest open water route is to Cuba and from there to Mexico. It is not the boat I would pick for this trip, but I already have it. So I was wondering if it was possible or if I would have to be crazy to try. I was wondering if most of the boat could be covered by a temporary cover to reduce the water that would be shipped in a blow. I was thinking of a light weight frame with a canvas cover tied down over it. The sail would be set on tracks to be easy to reef. All lines would be lead aft to prevent having to go forward. As far as a way to remove water from the boat, I have always heard that a scared man with a bucket is the worlds best bilge pump. I agree that any reasonable thing that would increase your chances would be worth doing. The wife would not necessarily agree, but I am not crazy so I would want to have as close to 100% chance as possible. But if you always wait until it is 100% safe you would never leave shore. I would want an emergency position transmitter at the least and a sat phone if possible. I looked and found several articles about people who have made the trip. One in a pair of 12 foot boats, but they had a large chase boat for safety.

[JeffM]

I think doing this trip in one day is nearly impossible: 6kts is just over hull speed--never mind the current.  A wind stiff enough to plane in continously all day is the sort of wind that I would not want carrying me out of sight of land.  On the other hand, why is it important to do the whole thing in one day?  I've sailed many times at night (though not in the open sea).  The boat has plenty of capacity for trips lasting days.  My longest so far was 5 days and 4 nights with two of my boys.  On that particular trip, we sailed part of the 25nmi across Cape Cod Bay (some of it out of sight of land) after dark, and dropped anchor after midnight.  I still remember being alone with all the stars and the Milky Way that night, after the boys were asleep. 

In your place, I'd plan it so as to avoid shipping lanes and keep in open waters until daylight.  (On one night trip I got a little lost, hove-to to consult the chart, and only then heard the breakers directly under my lee.)  I'd have good powerful nav lights.  I'd carry my vhf radio and monitor it; I'd keep a sharp lookout for ships that don't.  I'd program the course on gps and carry a spare, also programmed.  A tiller lock would take a lot of the work out of it: she'll balance nicely with the wind ahead of the beam.  (I've read books at the helm.)  I'd wear a harness as well as my pfd, and have a good way to get back into the boat from the water.  Then I'd look for a safe weather window: no thunderstorms and winds of 5-10 so there would be little danger of capsize.  (I'd have already practiced capsize recovery anyway.)

[Designer]

I have sailed to Cuba and enjoyed it very much.

I would have no hesitation to sail a CS20 or 17 to Cuba and points west. In fact while there I was wishing that I had one there rather than the deep draft vessel that I was on.

Obviously you need to make the hatches as secure and leakproof as possible. Practice righting the boat from a capsize often so that there are no surprises if it happens out in the Gulf Stream. Everything must be well stowed and lashed down. Efficient reefing system and appropriate  safety gear and a good dodger so that you can get out of the elements. Get as much experience as you can on the boat and go on a few overnight sails to get that experience and to see if you are up to it. Having been in many Watertribe events it is usually the untested and inexperienced boats that fail. I recall a conversation with the Chief when he said "you can usually tell which boats won't make it to the finish before they even leave the beach.

I think that you will find that the boat will be tougher than the crew.

[Ken_Potts]

  I'm not sure how to say this so I'll just dive in (please don't take this wrong) - If you're including an ELT in your decision about whether the trip is safe enough that's a good indication that you shouldn't go.  Plan the trip based on the complete lack of emergency support (or find a chase boat).  Although we've got wonderful emergency services in this country it's not always possible for them to be there when you need them.  I've had my CS17 out in some fairly stiff winds and I've felt pretty good about it but I've also rolled my boat in fairly innocuous conditions due to a chain of events where I made all the wrong moves.  Luckily my boat is easy to right.  :cool:

  I'm not saying you shouldn't go - That's entirely your decision (and I hope you'll post pictures and a trip report when you arrive cause I'm really envious), but if the ELT is a factor in that decision you are endangering innocent lives.  Helicopters are complicated things and an entire crew might be lost en route to help you.

  Go out and sail the boat in the rough stuff and once you've decided that boat and crew are up to the crossing without  an ELT go for it!

  But make sure you take the ELT once you take the plunge.  :grin:

  P.S. Listen to Graham, not me.  He goes out and has fun while I just cower at home and dream about the adventure you're proposing 

[Noklin]

Ken, I have no problem with any thing that you said. I consider the EPL the same as a car seat belt. I always use one when I am driving but I have never hit something on purpose to see if it would protect me. I do not want to put anyone else in the position of having to risk themselves to rescue me and might not use a EPL if it was only me but with another crew member alone it would be foolish not to have one on board in case something unexpected happened.

Jeff, since it is not possible to make the run to Cuba in one day, I would leave the keys late in the day hoping to make landfall during daylight the next day. Since a 180 pound guy on the centerboard can right the boat after a capsize, I was thinking about building another centerboard with about 180 pounds of lead. I figured that the new weighted centerboard should make the boat

[Steve Day]

When we used to go from West Palm Beach to West End or Lucaya in the Bahamas (about 55 nm), we used to leave in the evening and arrive the next morning. That put us out at sea at night, but our approach to shore was in the daylight. I would recommend you not try to approach your destination in darkness in any case. We had relatively small boats and always ran in company with others on that crossing. If one of us got in trouble, the others were nearby to assist.

The EPIRB is a great safety device, and I do not go to sea without one. However, I never go expecting to use it. It's kinda like the parachute I used when I flew sailplanes. A VERY EXPENSIVE seat cushion, but really cheap insurance, if needed.

Contemplating a trip like that is very interesting. I suspect it would be quite an adventure in a Core Sound.

Steve

[wkisting]

I'm no expert sailor, but I'll weigh in since I've dreamed up (and later fulfilled) a lot of adventures related to boating that were well beyond my skill level when I first dreamed of them. I think the trip would be no problem as long as you're patient for good conditions and have really become deeply familiar with the boat/rig.

What really gets "adventurous" folks into trouble is two things: (1) Not having the patience to wait for conditions to be ideal--in which case they often rush into less-than-ideal conditions that turn bad and unmanageable, and (2) Not "familiarizing" themselves with the boat/rig to the point that it becomes second nature, by which I mean reflex or habit. That is the degree of proficiency a person needs to "handle" potentially dangerous situations because the first thing most people lose in a crisis is their capacity for rational thought, and what kicks in to replace it is habit (things we've done so many times that we can do them without thinking).

I taught myself sea kayaking in the Midwest with a book and a lot of hours of practice. Then, I took solo trips in conditions that a lot of people told me were reckless and unsafe (earning me the nickname "the rogue paddler"). What I understood that kept me safe (and prevented me from being one more victim of my own foolishness) was that a person has to have humility and not be overconfident in their actions. I taught myself to eskimo roll a kayak and could have, like many kayakers, instantly assumed that I was "ready" to "handle" gigantic ocean surf or storm-tossed seas. Instead, I set myself a goal (the first major trip being my circumnavigation around Isle Royale on Lake Superior--famously cold water, famously inhospitable shoreline for paddlers) and made a plan to practice my skills for three years. Over those three years, I taught myself five more styles of rolling a kayak, practiced them thousands of times until they became automatic, deliberately practiced rolling in icy waters during Iowa winters (to get accustomed to the experience of shock as a body hits cold water), and then even asked paddling friends to randomly tip me (without warning) so that I could get accustomed to the panic of capsizing unexpectedly. I also took several shorter, safer trips on Lake Superior in the sheltered areas of the Apostle Islands. By the end of three years, I took my planned trip and it went off without a hitch, despite some truly nerve-wracking experiences with intimidatingly rough (and cold) conditions. It became one of the best experiences of my life.

The point, of course, is that what allowed me to do the trip "safely" was practice, practice, practice. And years later, in my first encounter getting unexpectedly "maytagged" (rolled repeatedly and violently in ocean surf, as if caught inside a washing machine), that practice ended up saving my life because it allowed me to keep a calm head while gallons of sea water were forced down my throat and several sets of waves pounded me into the seabed, unable to exit my kayak. Under water for nearly a full minute (it felt like an eternity), I was able to compose my thoughts, time the crashing waves, and match my efforts to roll upright to the lull between wave sets--all while fighting down my instinctive physical desire to gasp for air and choke on the water I was swallowing. Afterward, I would crawl onto the beach and puke out gallons of seawater, then lay there feeling nauseous and disoriented for an hour. My ego was bruised, perhaps, but I had known--from the beginning to the end of the experience--that I would not drown as long as I kept calm. And more importantly, I knew how to keep calm because enough practice had re-trained my panic instincts into productive self-rescue efforts.

That's what practice has to do: prepare you so well that you can collect your thoughts and perform the necessary steps of helping yourself without losing your head to panic. Over the years, I've met a lot of adventurous folks who have gotten themselves into really dangerous situations and only two things consistently get them out of it alive: (1) practice and (2) dumb luck. Since you can't count on the latter, you have to have the former. But what usually gets them into trouble in the first place is not being realistic about their skills or the demands of what they're attempting to do.

Most of this is just illustrating, anecdotally, what Graham recommended. But it bears repeating: You have to really know the boat/rig and do a lot of practice in shorter, less ambitious trips to hone the kind of skills that will help you accomplish this kind of a goal safely. Then, it will be perfectly manageable because you'll have the prudence, skill, and calm-headed nature to pull it off.

[Noklin]

I have been considering any modifications that I might want to make to the CS20 prior to a trip to Belize via Cuba and Mexico.

As I understand it the current bendy mast design is a safety factor in that it will dump a gust instead of causing the boat to capsize.

Over several years of reading the messages posted here, I have seen complains about the mast bending to dump the gust instead of causing the boat to accelerate. Another person had about 700 lbs on the windward rail keeping the boat upright when a strong gust hit and his mizzen mast failed (if I remember right he was not using the recommended mast tubing). One person who was using the recommended mast tubing had a very small tree limb catch the upper section of the mast and cause a failure of the lower mast due to the long level arm.

I have seen it recommended that a strong section of rubber shock absorber be installed when anchoring with all chain so that a section of the chain is held in a loop and the rubber band acts to slow the boat down prior to reaching the end of the chain. Several marine catalogs show a rubber snubber made for this purpose.

There is some new high tech rope available that is stronger than SS wire for the same size. For the same breaking strength you can use a smaller diameter.

As I figure the boat weight for the Belize trip I quickly get to the recommended load limit for a CS20 of 700 lbs (assuming a boat weight of 600 lbs).

Taking all of this into consideration, I was wondering if a compromise could be worked out with a side stay rigged from small diameter high tech rope with a rubber snubber similar to the anchor chain discussed above. This setup would allow the upper mast section to bend to minimize the capsize force while limiting the mast bend to less than what could cause a mast failure with the boat loaded to its capacity. This arrangement should have minimum wind resistance and also help protect the mast from damage in a bad capsize. The trick would be figuring out the length and strength of the snubber that would allow the right amount of mast bend.

[niko]

Then you'll loose the benefits of the unstayed rig