CS17 #226

[Apteryx]

Thanks, all - exciting times!

Good work Carl. Get that bow tight before you pull the stern in while you still have some leverage.

Yessir, I absolutely will.  Soaking the forward bottom panels and getting the full shape would have probably been a better plan, but I had to work fast to get 'er done while my kids were still here to help.  Having help at this stage made all the difference.

A few extra stitches and some clamping pieces helped, too.  I had the pieces laid out on the floor to glue the 'wings' so we had to lift the hull pieces up and on to the cradles.

I took some junk 1x4 and made some clamps.  Just one piece below, spanning the gap from the topsides piece to the bottom panel, another junk 1x4 on top.  A couple of drywall screws run through the junk boards in the gap created a nice clamp.  I did that at two spots on each side.

Plus I added about four temporary stitches.  Along the chine on the bottom piece I put a couple of stitches, holding the port chine to the starboard chine, and did the same thing along the topsides pieces at their chine.

That gave us an assembly of the two halves laying flat together without a terrible tendency to flap destructively.  Two of us at about 1/3 of the way up from the stern, and one of us a third of the way up from the bow lifted the hull pieces with only moderate flexing and no real strain on the bow glue joint.  The temporary reinforcing blocks are a must at the after end of the dovetail, but there wasn't much shifting at the gear teeth.

With the still-flat hull balanced vertically in the cradles I cut free the extra stitches and pulled the clamping boards.  As the hull settled the wings rested on the scaffold legs I'd rigged, all quite gently.

If I can escape some honey-dos today I'll get the shape right, and all the stitches tight.  Bow first, then walk down the sides working in parallel.  Many thanks for the help and advice, Graham!

[Apteryx]

Thanks, Oyster - I think you identified another problem.  When I mixed the epoxy it was over 100 degrees and the mix was like water.  It just took a couple of stirs to break up all the divisions I usually see - those lines that are like thermoclines or haloclines.  I remember thinking it didn't take much to stir up the epoxy.

I've been stirring for about three minutes in a one or two pump quantity.  I try to note the time I dispense the epoxy so I know how nervous to get about it kicking before I'm done. 

Anyway, I remember thinking how quickly the hot epoxy mixed - but probably not as quickly as I thought.  Note to self - stir more even when it seems runny enough to mix itself! 

[Oyster]

This time of year I actually use a piece of plywood with a piece of viscreen stapled around it and lay my blend out flat onto the surface which gives me some extra working time instead of leaving the blend in the cup to kick. You can also blend in your cabosil better by flipping the mix too on the flat area after you have thickened it up but not uniform enough too. This extends your time three to four times the working time. But make sure that you are using the slow even tropical hardeners. Its the thickness that makes the difference.

[SUKIE]

"I think the forward deck beam, the notched bit of dimensional lumber provided with the kit, is glued to the top forward side of the forward bulkhead.  Does that sound correct?"

Yes, the included beam is installed just aft of the forward bulkhead. You need to make your own beams that are attached to the forward and aft bulkheads, so just trace the shape from the bulkheads.

Congrats on your progress!! And yes, you'll build another boat. My husband keeps saying "So, when are you going to get rid of some of these boats?" I've built a rowboat and 3 kayaks, sold the rowboat, and am now building a CS17 from kit. My launch date was May 1st, then june 1st, and now, hopefully July 6th. It's the little stuff!

[Apteryx]

"I think the forward deck beam, the notched bit of dimensional lumber provided with the kit, is glued to the top forward side of the forward bulkhead.  Does that sound correct?"

Yes, the included beam is installed just aft of the forward bulkhead. You need to make your own beams that are attached to the forward and aft bulkheads, so just trace the shape from the bulkheads.

I may be confused - the included beam is glued to the top forward edge of the forward bulkhead, not just aft of?  Or do I have that backwards.  Come to think of it, laying the included beam along the top edge of the forward bulkhead should answer the question - it will either match, or not.

Anyway, here's my plan.  Comments most welcome!

The boat is loosely stitched.  I just haven't made much progress since last weekend but I'm going to mend my ways this weekend!

I think there may be some gaps in my understanding of how the boat goes together.  For instance, I think the centerline gets filleted and taped, just like the chines, then the keel batten goes in - probably with a flat planed to clear the fillet.

Somewhere before taping and filleting the centerline, all those dowels need to come out - but I'm not sure when that happens.

So, I made a list, as best I could.  Did I mention comments welcome, heckling, too! 

• Cut deck beams for top edge of aft bulkhead and transom, glue them in place.  Inside (forward) face of the transom, aft face of the aft bulkhead
  
• Glue centerline stiffner and motor mount reinforcement on forward face of transom.
  
• Glue provided deck beam to top edge, forward face of the forward bulkhead
  
• Pull centerline stitches tight, bow to stern, using dowels to spread the force
  
• Press temporary bulkhead into position, secure with drywall screws to bottom panels
  
• Press aft bulkhead into position, secure with stitches to bottom
  
• Press transom into position, secure with stitches to bottom
  
• Stitch chines (stitch topsides to bottom), working in parallel down both sides, bow to stern
  
• Secure temporary bulkhead to topsides with stitches
  
• Secure aft bulkhead, transom, and forward bulkhead to topsides with stitches
  
• Restitch centerline without the dowels
  
• Install inwales
  
• Fillet and tape centerline
  
• Fillet and tape chines
  
• Fillet and tape transom, aft, and forward bulkheads
  
• Pull all stitches
  
• Remove temporary bulkhead
  
• Glue keel batten, reinforce with tape
  
• Install bottom stringers
  
• Take the rest of the day off...  ;D
  

[John Burritt]

Still think there is confusion on the deck beams.  There is a deck beam that is installed several inches behind the forward bulkhead.  This supports the aft end of the foredeck, which extends past the forward bulkhead.  I think this beam is the one included in the kit.  Check it against the forward bulkhead.  They should NOT match.  The stiffeners (beams) glued to the forward & aft bulkheads and transom are shop cut to fit the plywood pieces in the kit.  The ends of these stiffeners are all cut at compound angles to fit flush w/ the sides.  The insides of the notches for the inwales also have to be beveled.

Other suggestions as to your assembly plan - I wouldn't get excited about installing the center frame, the  bulkheads & transom until I had the chines pretty well wired together all the way back.  They would distort the bottom panels w/out the sides in place.  Then I'd install the forward bulkhead, then the center frame, making sure they're square and centered side to side.  It's easier to screw the sides to the center frame than to wire.  You'll have holes to fill either way.  Then do the aft bulkhead and transom, making sure they're properly aligned.  Once everything is in place, tighten the wires.

I'd glue in the inwales before I worried about finalizing the chines & centerline.  They're a tremendous help holding everything in shape.

Assuming you're stitching w/ wire, I'd "spot weld" between the ties w/ thickened epoxy, making SMALL fillets.  Once these set, you can remove the wire ties.  Everything should stay in place as long as you don't stress it too much.  THEN re-fillet and tape the seams.

Don't be in a hurry to remove the center frame.  It's keeping the middle of the boat in shape.  Cut a notch in it at the centerline so you can slip the keel batten thru.  Once tje keel batten is glued in place it doesn't need any additional glass tape.

Hope this helps, and not add more confusion.

[Designer]

Carl,

John is correct, the beam supplied with the kit will be placed 19 1/2" aft of the forward bulkhead (see construction plan)and it is labeled aft foredeck beam on your parts sheet. You will notice the notches at both ends which will clamp up under the inwale and a pair of plywood knees glue against the forward side of the beam and are filleted to the hull.

You just need to trace around the top edge of the bulkheads and transom to get the shape of the rest of the beams.

My current thinking on the temporary frame is to leave it in the boat as long as possible so that the beam of the boat will not change and to prevent the middle of the boat from turning into a parallelogram. I am cutting a slot in the temp frame for the cockpit sides and their stringers to allow the seat structure to be built while the temp is in place. On non kit boats this is not as important because the seat tops will be made to fit the boat where as the kits already have those parts cut and there may not be enough material to trim if the shape wanders during construction.

[Apteryx]

Thanks, all, for the advice, and MANY thanks to Graham for the time he just took with me on the phone.  Funny thing, these homebuilt boats, the factory support is AWESOME.  Not only can you get top-notch advice from the designer, I know exactly what the minimum-wager on the assembly line was thinking as the boat was actually being built!  ;D

[Apteryx]

How are the fore-and-aft braces best attached to the deck beams and bulkheads?  The plans show 3/4 by 1 1/2 beams parallelling the king plank under the foredeck, and the aft deck is similarly supported.  Are they just end-glued to the bulkheads?

I am tempted to make my deck beams, the transverse ones glued along the top edges of the bulkheads 2 inches wide instead of the specified 1 1/2.  That way I could cut notches in the transverse bulkhead-attached beams to capture and support the ends of the fore-and-aft beams.

I'm also tempted to put beams on both the forward and after sides of the forward bulkhead, in order to have notches to support the fore-and-aft beams extending forward to the foredeck hatch and back to the rearmost forward deck beam.

But, hey, who am I to give in to temptation, although I do have some qualifications - as a shipwright I flip a heck of a burger.  Want fries with those deck beams?  ;D

Truth to tell I've already cut one set of beams, but I am also now the proud owner of a band saw.  Deck beams - I can cut three more of those to perfect fit in about two hours.  Just like Ray, except for how his perfect fit would really be perfect, and it probably wouldn't take him two hours of fiddling to cut three boards, even counting the side order of onion rings.  ;D

[Apteryx]

I decided to do (I think this is the right term) housed dovetails in my deck beams to carry the fore-and-aft members.  Here's my start - the aft deck structure, just sitting together.  I won't use any glue until it goes in the boat.

In that picture the fore-and-aft beams look to be angled but that's just the camera lens and the way the assembly was sitting - the beam faces are all plumb.

The fore-and-aft pieces are planed to a contant trapezoid cross section - the beams sit vertically and the upper surface matches the curve at the point they fit in the deck beams.  When I cut them to length to go in the boat, they shouldn't require much in the way of sanding or planing.

For the forward bulkhead I think I'll glue a transverse beam across both sides of the upper edge.  That way I can do my dovetails for the beams going each way, forward and aft, from the forward bulkhead.

Fun stuff!  My beams match the contour of the bulkheads to a high degree, and I'm happy with the fit of my afterdeck beams.

[John Turpin]

That looks great, Carl.  Progress, baby!

[SUKIE]

You know, I remember after doing that step and thinking, "I'm sure glad these will never be seen by anyone!"

Yours, on the other hand, look terrific.

Now, git that boat in the water!

[Apteryx]

Someday she'll be no longer a pile of plywood - that will be 'two best days' rolled into one.  I remember being terribly excited to start this CS17 and I'm sure I'll be equally stoked up the day I can get away with saying she's finished.

That same day (or close thereon) I'll start a larger boat, with a cabin.  And then that's it, the end of my boat building career.  Except for a dinghy.  I have a dinghy with no class at all, a recycled plastic thing.  It's nice, but it's not something I made.  So, no more boat building with the exception of a dinghy.

Given my wife's horror of heeling (darn it), we might someday want a small power cruiser.  Not sure I could handle building anything like an Outer Banks 20, but something (arg!) without a sail would please my wife.  But after the dinghy, the power boat, and maybe a larger camp-cruising sailboat...

When I first got my CS17 kit there was a pile of disposable small paint mixing trays marked down at the local Wally World.  They were about five by five inches and worked well for mixing up to about three pumps of epoxy.  Maybe more, but I haven't needed to work with larger quantities.

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have used them.  Epoxy bonded to the tubs.  I never noticed the tubs getting soft from the epoxy but since it was bonding it's possible the epoxy was picking up some of the chemistry of the tubs.

I finally ran out of them, and being a creature of habit I went back for more.  Wal Mart no longer stocks them, so I got a three dollar pack of 'Gladware' food tubs as an experiment.

Hefty contractor garbage bags have zero adhesion to epoxy, so I use them quite a bit, and the food tubs had that same slick plastic feel.

Sure enough, cured epoxy comes right out of them with no visible effect to the plastic so the Gladware tubs are reusable.  Here's a picture of a tub with some epoxy left in it, mostly squeeze out I scooped up.  The bottom photo shows the same tub after the epoxy popped out like a casting out of a mold.

[John Turpin]

A little advice, Carl.  Never sit that epoxy mixing container next to your lunch sack.  I would think that a tupperware container with mashed potatoes and a tupperware container with silica-thickened epoxy could look dangerously similar.  That could be a disaster waiting to happen and wiping potatoes from a hull joint would be messy.  On the other hand, nicely thinned mashed potatoes would be fairly easy to fair.

[Travis Votaw]

...Just shaking my head...

[Ken_Potts]

Once the "mashed potatos" have been warmed in the microwave for a minute or so the mistake will be pretty evident 

[Apteryx]

Wiping the mashed potatoes off the boat could be messy, but wiping the mashed potatoes off with a slice of homemade cornbread, that wouldn't be so bad.

And there's a great boat name there, too - the S/V Gravy Schooner.  :-D

[Apteryx]

Any thoughts about where to locate the outboard bracket?  I'm ready to reinforce the transom, and I think a 12 inch wide piece with its centerline about midway in the port half of the transom would be about right.

Suggestions appreciated.

This week I was pretty sure I wouldn't have any blocks of time, so I made a laminated 'plank' out of 3/8 x 3/4 strips ripped from a plain-sawn 1x12.  For one thing I wanted to make sure an outboard reinforcing piece wouldn't split under abuse.  Also, I was curious about the problems I would encounter making a laminated piece like this - call it a materials experiment.

I made a 12 inch by 17 inch plank in four layers - the outer two wth the strips as shown, the inner two layers on opposing diagonals.  It's heavier than just wood, weighing about five pounds.

It's also very, very stiff feeling.  I can't flex it the tiniest bit. It's much more rigid than the 1x12 it came from.  I think I'll use it for my outboard mount reinforcement.  Or, if the hamster dance seems poised for a comeback I've got a dance floor for them.  The little buggers sure won't be able to stamp through it...  :-D

Any pointers on where to put the outboard bracket?

[John Turpin]

Any pointers on where to put the outboard bracket?

Hmmmm.  I'd shoot for the back of the boat somewhere.

[Apteryx]

Yes, John, I really expected you, or somebody else in the BOOTS crowd to shoot at the back of the boat.  Those marshmallow cannons really got out of hand one year, and once a pirate, arr, always a pirate.  Peace will not last forever and someday the confectionery will undoubtedly fly again.

But note I'll be quadruple planked at the stern.  There I'll be, racked twixt a lee shore and a Lake Texoma buccaneer raking my stern.  All will seem lost but a midshipman aboard my boat will point to the marshmallows bouncing harmlessly off my transom, rallying my crew with the cry, 'Huzzah! She has a butt of iron!'

Yep, I can just see my boat, docked in Charleston 200 years from now and how the crowds will adore the legacy of Old Ironbutt.  No?  Oh well, the lot of a dreamer, the dreams are fantastic but somewhere along the line life always requires a little sweat.