Core Sound 20 Hull #102

[wkisting]

Hey Graham, has Carla sent out the rigging package for my CS20 yet? I dropped her an e-mail, but maybe it got re-routed to her junk mail, as I haven't heard back in awhile. Getting close to needing the rudder pintles/gudgeons and the dimensions for the birdsmouth spars to fit the odd pair of sails you're sending.

Got the interior epoxy coated today. Took about 20 foam brushes to lay one coat over the whole interior. That's because we put it on THIN (practically "dry brushing") and will do many coats instead of taking the chance of runs and sags. But the thin coats chew up foam brushes quickly because the drier the brush, the more it tears itself against the wood and you have to throw it out before it leaves all the foam bits that make bumps in the epoxy. (See Ray's thread on the "lowly foam brush," if you haven't already.)

Here's a pic... oh, and by the way, look who showed up to help sand today. When it comes to getting into tight spaces, he's a magician with the sandpaper!

[Charlie Jones]

Best bet is to call her - like now. The number is on the web site. Graham doesn't always keep daily on this forum.

[wkisting]

Thanks Charlie... I'll give her a call tomorrow morning after I finish the last seal-coat on the interior. (Hate to ring them too late or too early in the day, as I suspect they're very busy.)

[wkisting]

Cut the hatches today... also spent time with the chisel to remove the cleat from the underside of each hatch cover... that wasn't fun, but it came out well and now it will be easier to build a watertight seal.

Charlie mentioned that the CS20 seats are the same build as the P22 (I have plans for both, but my CS20 sheet for the hatches was missing, so I followed the P22 specs). But now that I see them cut out and compare them with other CS20 builders' pictures, I can tell that the P22 hatches are deeper on the front lip than the CS20. No big deal... I'll just have to get creative when I build the inner lip. If I run the "gutter" diagonally all the way down to the edge of the (deeper) front lip that I cut out, it will intrude too far into the locker and prevent me from cramming large gear into the seats. So instead I think I'll run it diagonal to a point about 3-1/2" down, then turn it vertical for the last 2-1/4" so the water can drop out. Shouldn't be hard, but it'll add an extra hour of labor (to do all four). On the plus side, with a 5-3/4" deep lip, nothing short of full submergence will spill water into my hatches.

Anyone happen to know how deep the front lip is supposed to be on the CS20 hatches?

Here's a pic...

[wkisting]

Got the beginnings of four hatches built today... These are unavoidably labor-intensive, but I had a clever idea to make them a little easier. Yesterday, I coated the insides of the seat openings with packing tape (to prevent epoxy adhesion), then glued the wooden frame parts together in place to make a perfect fit. Today, the wooden frame was dry, making a perfect template for each hatch so that I could do all the measuring and cutting in the garage, without having to take further measurements from the boat. Worked very well.

Tomorrow, I'll create the inside lip and fiberglass everything. I glued and screwed these parts (#8 - 3/4" stainless screws) and I'll glue-and-screw them to the boat as well because I have the nagging feeling that someone will inevitably step or stand on the hatch covers someday and I want to be sure they'll handle the stress. As an added bonus, the screws align everything so nicely... when you get to gluing (messy), they're more than worth any trouble they create because all the parts jump back into perfect alignment as you drive the (pre-drilled) screws. They hold the hatch nice and solid, without any clamps in the way as you clean up the glue squeeze-out. Nice.

We settled on an angled channel that slopes to 3-3/4", then turns straight down for the last 2". (See previous post about why we cut them so deep.) This will actually be a nice feature, because it means I can epoxy a 3/4" stringer on back of the bottom lip of the hatch cover for stiffness and for attaching a latch/lock.

[Edit to clarify description]

[Randy C.]

Are the frames in the picture right side up? If I look at the picture long enough I might figure it out. I'll keep watching for more pictures.

[wkisting]

Randy, yes... The Douglas Fir frame (lighter colored) gets glued to the perimeter of the seat cut-out. The (darker) 3/8" Meranti plywood is being used to create the inner drainage channel, so what you're looking at is the front lip and the "floor" running around the other three sides of the hatch. Next, I'll add the vertical inside lip to those three sides and I'll have a complete drainage channel.

Mine look different than most because the front lip is cut deeper than plans. I was missing the plan sheet for the CS20, so I followed the Princess 22 specs, which turned out to have deeper front lips. If I had made the slope run all the way down to the bottom edge of the cutout (5-3/4" down from the top of the seat) it would've bisected too much of our storage space, so I ran it down to 3-3/4", then turned the channel to drop straight down for the last 2". It's confusing to explain, but once I install them, I'll take a picture and it will make a lot more sense.

[Matt J]

The boat is looking good Wes.

I'm glad to see Joe is still around to help. ;D

[wkisting]

Quick question... what sort of hinge do you all use to attach the seat hatches in the CS20? I was thinking of using a hidden piano hinge, but I'm not sure how I'll be able to attach it with the drainage lip in the way. I could mount it on top, but that might look funny to have an exposed butt hinge. What kind of hinge have you used and where is it mounted? (hidden or on top of the seat?)

Thanks! I'm back out to the garage to finish building my hatch lips....

[wkisting]

Okay, hatch lips are on... now they are structurally complete, but we're going to sand them down and fiberglass the undersides to increase strength and reduce chipping at the edges of the plywood.

Gluing up the pieces is a mess, but I was smart and bought an 18-gauge brad nailer (pneumatic) which made an ideal way to "tack" the parts together while the epoxy cures. I'd hate to attempt gluing all these pieces with clamps, though I'm sure it's possible... if I tried that, I'd probably clamp and glue one piece at a time, which would take a LONG time.

Next time around (if there is a next set of hatches like these), I'll try Ray's mold method.

Not sure about a surface-mounted piano hinge... I wish I could find something more discrete/elegant than that, but we'll see....

Here's pics... should be easier to comprehend their design now...

[wkisting]

Hey Ray, am I remembering correctly that somewhere you said you've built aluminum masts for the CS series without tapering to smaller 2.5" and 2" sections near the top? I seem to recall you saying you just made the whole mast out of 3" diameter T6061 T6 aluminum, but perhaps I've got that wrong?

Graham's talking me into aluminum masts... I'm still not sure, but I'm beginning to lean that way. But I wanted to ask whether you prefer the tapered or constant diameter masts and why. If it's not you that posted that tidbit, forget I asked.    Maybe I read it somewhere else because I can't find it in the archives.

[Randy C.]

O.K. I'm starting to get it.

[wkisting]

Hey Randy, I clamped one in the boat and snapped a pic for you... this should make the hatch design easier to understand. Keep in mind, ours are slightly different and more complex than the stock design due to a measurement error. But they're coming out well nonetheless.

The top of the lip is deliberately left a little high at present because we're planning to install them and THEN run a router along the seats to cut the inner lip to exactly the desired height (with the desired clearance to accommodate a rubber gasket). We could do this before installing them in the boat, but then the thickness of the epoxy glue might throw off our clearance, so it's safer to wait until after they're glued in.

Took four hours to sand two hatch rims today. I'll spend four more sanding the other two tomorrow. Then we'll fill all the screw and brad nail heads and fiberglass them. Should have four finished hatch rims by the end of the weekend. We also have a bunch of folks coming over on Saturday to help us flip the boat so we can start work on the bottom. Have to really kick it into high gear if we want to finish the painting before the hot Georgia weather (late June, early July) arrives.

[Randy C.]

Looks good. I've got a long way to go. Are you keeping track of your time? Just curious.

[wkisting]

No, I never track my exact time when building (except for generically/approximately, in terms of "days spent building"). If I try to track the hours or minutes, I become obsessed with the amount of time each piece takes, and I begin to anticipate how many remaining hours of labor I have yet to do... which invariably leads to disappointment as I discover more and more work I didn't anticipate, or start spending twice as long as "planned" on most parts of the boat. Counting minutes also tends to make me start hurrying myself, so instead, I try to focus on perfecting the quality of the build rather than counting the minutes. When I get to the end of the build, I do often wonder how many hours of labor (exactly) I've put into it. But I'm a lot happier with the results if I haven't been counting. 

Of all the things I've learned in my years of boatbuilding (this is my third boat), the most valuable "skill" I've learned--by far--is not any particular technique like scarfing, fiberglassing, fill-coating, etc. (though learning those has certainly been helpful). The most valuable skill I've learned (making the biggest difference in the quality of the finished results) is patience. For me, it's hard to remain patient if I start trying to quantify the amount of time I'm spending, which always makes me feel like I need to hurry up.

In general, I've been spending 4-6 hours per day on this build for most days, on top of working full time at the university teaching 4 classes. It's summer now, and I'm down to teaching just one 2-hour class per day, so that makes it easier to devote time to the boat, but it still feels like working two full time jobs a lot of days. If I didn't enjoy some of it, I'd never get through it. The secret, for me at least, is to occasionally drop what you're doing and sit in the boat for about 30 minutes just thinking about sailing. It reinvigorates you so that you get excited about building again. Of course, this kind of reinvigoration gets easier to imagine once you get the seats installed, because then you have somewhere to sit. 

[Randy C.]

Wes,

I'm going to try to keep a record, just so I have an idea of the labor involved. This is my first attempt at building anything like this. I don't have any time limit set for completion, hopefully by fall(I didn't say which fall). For me, keeping track of my time won't make me get in a hurry, I hope!! I always try to do the best job that I'm capable of doing. I've had some projects that didn't turn out like I'd hoped, but it wasn't from going too fast. I tend to be a little slow. Graham told me the CS 17 takes between 300-400 hrs. How close I will come to that?? No matter, it'll be an experience, and I hope fun!!

[wkisting]

Logging your time is always interesting. It's just a quirk of my nature that it causes me to rush... part of my competitive spirit, I guess. If, for example, I build a hatch lip in 4 hours, I start wondering, "Hmmm... I bet I can build the next hatch rim in 3 hours." I don't intentionally do sloppy work, but it makes me start rushing things.

I logged my hours on the first boat I ever built (a cedar strip kayak) and as I recall (fuzzy memory now) I had somewhere around 900 - 1000 hours in it. I've actually found plywood sailboat building to go much faster, even though the boat is technically bigger. Fitting cedar strips and doing all the cockpit/hatch work on a kayak is very time-consuming to get it right. But on this boat, I've found that I'm actually much happier if I stop paying attention to the passage of time and just let myself slip into the "zen" of boatbuilding (as some people call it). Some days, I'll work for 8 hours on the boat and forget to eat any meals until my wife finally comes out and says, "Have you had ANYthing to eat today?!" (That's always my cue to stop for the day.) It's funny how you can "lose yourself" in the experience of building sometimes, and that's when it's most enjoyable to me. Of course, on sanding days, it's always much harder to feel zen-like about the experience. Sanding just plain sucks. 

As Graham will surely tell you, that 300-400 hours is a rough estimate. Something as seemingly insignificant as how carefully you clean up any epoxy messes you make can make a difference of probably 50-100 hours in your build time. Why? Because if you constantly leave a mess of epoxy that cures, you'll add MANY hours of extra sanding. So one main important point to keep in mind is "work cleanly." It's better to do a little at a time, with no mess, than to hurry yourself and (inadvertently) create a lot more work for yourself later.

There will be days (probably) that you curse and wonder why you ever started such a project as this, but there will also be days when you'll be proud of what you've accomplished. I'm sure many days, you'll have fun. But be prepared for some days to feel like WORK.    Keep us posted on your build as you go, and definitely post some pics. I love to watch other folks' boats come together.

By the way, we had a get-together and flipped our boat today. The bottom needs some sanding, but the curves are VERY fair, and should require very little filler to get the bottom ready for glass. I was really pleased, so it definitely paid off that we took such care to level and "tweak" the boat shape way back at the stitched stage (when we first unfolded the panels).

[Charlie Jones]

I had that happen just today. Sat down to eat this evening and realized I had not stopped for lunch.

And actually, after you've done it enough, even sanding can be zen like. You kinda "zone out " and just do it.

You make an EXCELLENT point about working clean- cleaning up drips and runs as they happen is SO much quicker than sanding and scraping them off.

[Charlie Jones]

my favorite tool for that is a Surform block plane. I don't even know if they still sell those. Just hate to hear one of my plane irons hit cured epoxy ;D

My OTHER favorite Surform tool is no longer made, nor are the blades. That was the minifile. 1/2 inch wide and would cut right to the edge of a notch. But it had teeth exposed on both edges and would cut you badly, so I guess in our modern world they just couldn't make them anymore. Fortunately I found out they had stopped making them and bought up all the blades I could find. I have only about 6 left >

[Randy C.]

Wes,

I sanded and  cleaned up my scarf joints. I know exactly what you mean about sanding the epoxy. I will be very careful and clean up as I go so as not to create a BUNCH of extra work.