Using plastic cable ties for stitch and glue seams

[Garry]

I'm almost ready to stitch up my Birder 2. I think I will use the plastic cable ties as recommended. Previously on the Spindrift, I tabbed to seams together with dabs of thickened epoxy and then removed all the wire ties before running the fillets and taping.

For this boat, I would like to run the fillets and tape over the cable ties. Then they would simply be cut off flush on the exterior since they would be impossible to remove. My only concern is that there may be areas where the cable tie makes a lump that I can't conceal within the fillet. This would be most likely where the seam is almost flat where few ties will be needed, not where there is a signficant angle between the two pieces.

I'm sure I will be able to work with it; maybe a little fairing although I plan to minimize fairing and just clearcoat the whole thing - let the tape show a little. Any tips would be appreciated.

[Steve Day]

Garry,

I have used aircraft safety wire on all of the stitch & glue boats I have built. It is not expensive and is easy to work with. I have had good success with removing it by heating where epoxy had "captured" the wire during the initial application. A good set of safety wire pliers also helps twist the wire easily. One side benefit is that it is made from stainless steel, so it can be left in the boat if I cannot remove it from the seam.

I don't think I would play with tie wraps, given my good experience with the safety wire.

One side issue is that I do poke myself a few times in the safety wire process. OUCH!  That could convince some folks to use the tie wraps.

Happy New Year,

Steve

[Oyster]

Why not tape away from the ties, tabbing the parts in place and waiting for the epoxy tabs to cure and this would not be an issue. Then go back and tape across the bare areas with a complete run of tape if you wish to use the plastics? Just curious..

Keep in mind that numerous boats are built using plastic staples that gets ground down smoothe and glassed over too, faired and never have a problem in cold moulded builing methods of laminations.

[Hirilonde]

Garry, what do you perceive is the advantage of using cable ties?

[Tom Lathrop]

Plastic wire ties are fine but will most likely give trouble with the filets.  You will either have to make the filets larger than necessary or tolerate the bumps.  Why not just cut and remove them?  There's no positive for leaving them in.

[adla]

This guy built a real beautiful boat and left the bumps from the plastic cable ties in, but it seems like with a little extra effort he could have either cut them out as Oyster suggests, or even taken the time to smooth them over. Either way - there are lots of pictures on his site that show what the cable ties look like under the tape.

http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/Gallery/Morgan.html

a.

[Garry]

I got it all tied together and it looks like about half of the cable ties would cause lumps in the tape. So I will dab the seams with enough thickened epoxy to hold while I remove the cable ties. Then I'll make one continuous fillet over the dabs and tape while the fillet is setting up.

Thanks all.

[sandy claws]

Oyster has the best idea. Because that is exactly the way I did my boat. See: www.flickr.com/photos/sandyclaws/

Look at the bottom of page 2 in my flickr album. I used the plastic wire ties and made the fillets between them with oak sawdust and slow curing resin utilizing the gizmos I made pictured in the album. I put masking tape on the back side to hold the putty in place and also to minimize work afterward. After the fillets cured I removed the wire ties and sanded the fillet smooth and then filled in between where the wire ties had been. Then I applied the biaxial tape. The gizmo that I came up with worked out great as it kept the panels located properly and it allowed the proper gap for the epoxy. Try it...you'll like it! 

Rog...

[Oyster]

Oyster has the best idea. Because that is exactly the way I did my boat. See: www.flickr.com/photos/sandyclaws/

Look at the bottom of page 2 in my flickr album. I used the plastic wire ties and made the fillets between them with oak sawdust and slow curing resin utilizing the gizmos I made pictured in the album. I put masking tape on the back side to hold the putty in place and also to minimize work afterward. After the fillets cured I removed the wire ties and sanded the fillet smooth and then filled in between where the wire ties had been. Then I applied the biaxial tape. The gizmo that I came up with worked out great as it kept the panels located properly and it allowed the proper gap for the epoxy. Try it...you'll like it! 

Rog...

Can you tell us or do you have some photos that show your hull in the water and some performance comments? I go back to the time when Capt. Billy had the original concept and when Jacque and Capt. Ken did the mockup and proto type hull build. Thanks

[Garry]

The gizmo that I came up with worked out great as it kept the panels located properly and it allowed the proper gap for the epoxy. Try it...you'll like it! 

Good ideas on the gizmos Rog. I saw that Graham is using something similar on the new kit boat he is developing. Probably need to wrap them or wax them to make sure they don't get bonded into place.

Unfortunately, they wouldn't work on the Birder kayak since the joint is not edge-to-edge. In some places, one side is planned to land on the other; others are beveled to join together. But the thin plywood panels are easy to hold in place with the cable ties.

[jaxsailr]

Some time back i had read epoxy did not stick to hairspray.  So I use it in screws that need to come out.  One could spray the tie down and then be easier to pull out.  Worth a try anyway...

Niels

[Garry]

That might work, but the tie wraps have little indentations for the metal tooth to grip. Epoxy might grip those indentations making it difficult. And that still wouldn't eliminate the problem with the bumps created by the tie wraps.

I like that idea for screws and other items though!

[sandy claws]

Oyster- I built Jacque's XF20 and it floats in 1 to 2 inches of water. It has a pocket tunnel and a power jackplate with a shortshaft 30 hp Merc. They say that it will go full speed( in my case 17-18 mph) in 5 inches of water. I don't know. Every time I hang off the back of the transom at full speed with my face underwater I just can't manage to read the tape measure. Besides those danged old oysters keep hittin' me in the head.

[Greg Luckett]

The first boat I built the plastic ties were left in and did cause bumps.  On the next two boats, they were also left in but were minimized by better placement of the holes to the panel edges and then removing the bumps by grinding or sanding prior to the final glassing stages.  I have never removed the plastic ties, with a few exceptions.  I do remove them on the hull side by trimming them flat prior to glassing and taping the seams.

[Hirilonde]

Is the reasoning behind wire ties over wire here to avoid tear out in the thin plywood?

[Greg Luckett]

[quote author=Hirilond

[Charlie Jones]

I've found several things about this and I've used both.

First, the wire ( or cable) ties require a larger hole than does a piece of twisted wire.. So that can be a consideration, depending on how the boat is to be finished.

Second, cable ties in some instances just don't have the "oomph" to pull panels together- you simply cannot get them as tight as you can twisted wires, particularly in areas with a good bit of twist to the panels.

Third, in some areas the cable ties protrude too much into the interior, so they get in the way of filleting, unless you tab, then remove the ties, THEN fillet and tape. Extra steps to my mind.

Removing wires is a quick simple thing so that's no big deal- of course, using cable ties, you just slice 'em away with a sharp chisel and go. And making up a bunch of 3 inch wires is a really quick and simple thing to do- I can make several hundred in 5 minutes.

I'd say it depends both on the boat in question and the person themselves- which ever you are most comfortable with is what should be used. Each has good and bad points.

[Steve Day]

I think a lot of people don't like to work with the wire because it is hard on the hands. I usually have a couple of wounds when I tie a boat, but I still prefer the wire. :-[

As I said before, I'm used to using aircraft safety wire with a proper set of safety wire pliers.

Steve

[Ken_Potts]

  Safety wire pliers are cool.  I didn't know of the existence of them when I was wiring up my hull but once I used a pair for work I realized they'd lower the carpal-tunnel danger by a good amount.