Which Epoxy?

[Larry Q]

I am done with the plywood search and am on to epoxy. I would like to get your opinions and experiences with the various epoxy vendors. I used System 3 on my first boat, but there are several options that are cheaper and I am interested in your thoughts.

Here are the vendors and prices I found. These are all per gallon prices for the final mix. There is some variation in package sizing so I converted these all to gallon prices.

MAS $83

System 3 $63

Boatbuilders Central $45

Progressive Epoxy Polymers $44

Raka $43

FGCI $41

US Composites $31

Thoughts? Experience? I find it interesting that there are 4 vendors within 4 dollars of each other.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Greg Luckett]

Do a search here on the subject as we have explored it in detail just recently again.

[Charlie Jones]

I don't believe your RAKA price.

I have an invoice laying on my desk right now, from just last week, for 1 gallon of resin and 1/2 gallon hardener, plus shipping, for $98.xx. To make it easy to do the math call it $99. So 1/3 of that total is $33, times 2 ( cause you're getting 1 1/2 gallon) is $66.

Your per gallon price should be $66 dollars, if you include shipping.

ANY of the major brands is going to work well for you. Personally I still use and prefer WEST. The cost per gallon is simply not THAT much more particularly on a smaller vessel.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Rakas 15 gallon kit works out to $42 a gallon plus shipping. You might as well bite the bullet because your going to need at least that much. I have used 19 gallons on mine.

Scott

[Larry Q]

Scott,

I was wondering if I should start with 9 or go ahead and get 15. Guess I will bite the bullet. Just spent $1300 on plywood so I am committed (or need to be). I take you used Raka?

Charlie,

I didn't include shipping since it general works out the same for me being in the middle of the country. Everything has to come from one coast or another. I looked at West, but I have some 4:1 epoxy now and really don't like the ratio (and West is 5:1). I found myself wasting a lot because I had trouble getting a small enough batch. Of course, that was a small project, nothing like the Belhaven.

Greg,

I did search but nothing really jumped out. There are hundreds of topics with "epoxy" in them. I was thinking I had seen something earlier, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks all for the feedback.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Larry if I new that I was going to have the hull done within a year the 15 gallon kit would be my choice. But if your going to be awhile two orders of 9 gallon kits would keep you in fresher stuff.

Yes I used Raka and really liked it. Unlike Charlie I have only used one other brand ( Clark crafts ). So my experience here is not very deep.

Scott

[Guest Oyster]

I just received an e-mail from Jamestown Distributor, which sends me the latest weekly specials. Yea, right. You do not get one gallon of material, and the ratio is 5/1. You need to compare apples to apples, too, when it comes to costs per ounce, or by volume of total material. 66 bucks for a gallon and a half, mixed material or one gallon of mixed material at how much? Remember one thing, even for the novice builder. proper mix ratios are important, and long ago I gave up pumps. The viscosityt changes, and over time, the pumps, if not cleaned will plug up, and you get less material for each pump. Do your self a favor, practice using those premeasured containers, or try measuring a stir stick with lines, and a tape measure, of the proper ratios, pouring the blend together. Over time you will find this to be usefull tool in the ratios of 2 to 1 or large amounts when doing hull sides, too.

The slower the ratio, the better, since the elements change the cure and pot life in large mixes, and large jobs. Be patient, and let it be known that its to your advantage to use the slower mixes, as you can recoat if you need another coat to fill the weave, or as in my case, I also fair the next day, or in the green stage of the resin without sanding. Also your slower hardeners have less amine blush on the surface that needs to be removed on the completely cured glues..

[Howard]

Not that I'm an expert, but having mixed and used several gallons in the last year or so, I do have an opinion.

I think there are at least three things to consider: price, ease of use and outcome. I like the 2:1 mixes. I started out using West epoxies years ago and can't remember the number of times I'd be mixing a batch and have a partial blowout on a pump as the container ran dry. If you were not willing to take a chance on guessing how much was missed...you tossed that cup and moved on. There is a minimum size you can mix.

Price is price, but it's not the only thing to consider. I read once that there are only a couple companies that manufacture the raw resins and all of them use the same basic raw ingredients. They vary their products with different hardeners and extenders. And because of that, they are different.

I'm now using RAKA and while I pull from the bottles with pumps, I measure by volume. I have attached a shot of some of my mixing cups. I have more and not shown is a gallon bucket, which I've never used, but could....if I was doing a large area of Xynole cloth and wanted to mix a large batch (half gallon or so). I'd never risk mixing more than that for anything. With those throw away cups, you don't have to clean up anything. The little plastic cups came from the drugstore and are sold to measure medications. I can mix batches as small as 7.5 ML (slightly larger than one teaspoon). None have ever failed.

If I had one complaint about RAKA it's that they don't have a really slow hardener for temps above 80 degrees or for mixing super slow kicking fillet mixes. If they do have one, I stand corrected and would like to know about it.

Lastly, these products all differ in use. They differ in viscosity and some will trap bubbles that you can't get rid of, some will blush and some do not leave all that clear of a finish. Some are reputed to cause more allergic reactions than others. Before I'd buy 15 gallons of anything, I'd try a sample of each and see how it works. You will be surprised at how different they are.

[Charlie Jones]

Larry- in that case, you won't be unhappy with the RAKA. I'm currently using it on a Core Sound 17 and I'd happily use it again. Good delivery service too.

Can't say what would happen if you had a problem and needed tech help. That's always been one of WEST's big values- the tech department just a phone call away.

I also understand that the MAS has been changed so it doesn't have that ungodly slow cure in temps in the 60s. That's the ONLY thing I really didn't like about MAS. I was trying to finish a couple of boats during the winter and the MAS slowed me by days, so I switched back to WEST, which cured in a day during those times.

MAS smells the best to me by the way- kinda like cherry cough syrup, without the acrid odor that WEST sometimes has. RAKA isn't bad smelling either.

And if I was working part time, I'd go for the 9 gallon kit also. The epoxy won't go bad - has an almost unlimited shelf life, but the hardener will darken over time, so later mixes will be noticibaly darker than earlier ones. Getting 9 at a time will slow some of that, although it'll still darken for you. The fast hardeners are much worse in that regard than the slows by the way. 5 year old WEST fast will come out almost purple.

[Greg Luckett]

Scott' date='

.....

I did search but nothing really jumped out. There are hundreds of topics with "epoxy" in them. I was thinking I had seen something earlier, but I couldn't find it.....[/quote']

Start at http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4408&highlight=mas

[Kidd]

I used Raka on my CS 17. I have also used some west system. I find the Raka has less blush to deal with. The advantage of west system is I can get it local.

[Larry Q]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Greg, thanks for the link. That was a really good thread. Not sure how I missed it.

I am going to go with Raka and I will start with the 9 gallon kit. I would like to think I can get done in a year, but I don't have that much vacation time.

My plywood is supposed to arrive today and I will probably place my order for epoxy and glass tonight (I need to talk to Graham about how much cloth to buy for sheathing).

Can't wait to start measuring (3 times) and cutting (once I hope) ...

[boatbuilder.org]

All the MAS hardeners (slow. medium and fast) are now no-blush. My price on MAS is $77 a gal (based on a 3 gallon kit) and $65 a gal (based on a 12 gallon kit). I will even throw you the 10% discount I offer Devlin customers http://www.devlinboat.com/mascart/index.htm

----Joel---

[Larry Q]

I was talking to Graham the other night about glass cloth for sheathing and he told me that he sells epoxy too (I didn't know this). He told me it was very similar to Raka and his price is $40 a gallon regardless of quantity, so I ordered 3 gallons to try. I'll let you all know after I get a chance to try it out.

[Guest Oyster]

I was talking to Graham the other night about glass cloth for sheathing and he told me that he sells epoxy too (I didn't know this). He told me it was very similar to Raka and his price is $40 a gallon regardless of quantity' date=' so I ordered 3 gallons to try. I'll let you all know after I get a chance to try it out.[/quote']

I have used about six gallons of it now. I am a person that enjoys working times and little blush. I have found these two properties in the brand that he is selling. Make sure that the ambient temperature allows you to pour the epoxy easily.I like good body to my mix. But its also important to have the viscosity thin enough for proper wetout of the cloth, too. Mark the containers with a sharpie marker, if there are no labels on the containers, when you get them. The epoxy is a bit lighter in color, leaving the hardener as a mild urine color.

I store mine inside, in a large tupperware container, and bring out the resin as needed during the winter seasons.

[Arnie Eaton]

That price sounds very good. What is the mix ratio? I like using the stuff I got from Clark Craft some years ago. It is a 1:1 mix. Very easy to do. I will need 3-4 more gals., I think to finish my Vacationer

[Larry Q]

That price sounds very good. What is the mix ratio? I like using the stuff I got from Clark Craft some years ago. It is a 1:1 mix. Very easy to do. I will need 3-4 more gals.' date=' I think to finish my Vacationer[/quote']

Graham's epoxy is a 2:1 mix and he has both slow and fast hardeners available.

[Leo Hill]

OK - I went and read the MAS thread referenced by Greg http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4408&highlight=mas here.

All of it made some sort of sense to this (nearly) geezer. :roll:

Today on ebay there is an ad for this guy - http://www.jgreer.com/index.htm Anyone had any experience with his products?

6 gallons of "generic" @ $40/gal plus shipping.

And as Tom Lanthrop said, a few hundred to a thousand dollars difference in the cost of epoxy may be significant to someone planning to build on a tight budget.

Opinions please.

Best,

Leo[/code]

[Garry]

FWIW - I used Raka epoxy with the slow hardener to build my Spindrift. I did all the work in the house I shared with three other guys. I had the lower level (walkout basement). It was the winter so the house was closed up. The worst part was cutting and sanding which I did mostly on the screened porch in the cold.

I built the boat in the rec. room and slept in the next room. The only time I noticed a smell was while mixing the two parts together. The guys upstairs never noticed a smell at all even though they knew about the boat of course.

[Arnie Eaton]

I just ordered 5 more gal. of epoxy from Clark Craft. The price is good, $43.20 per gal. in 5 gal. lots. Has a 1 to 1 ratio, no amine blush, no sanding between coats, and low viscosity for easy wet-out and longer life. I have used this product in the past and I REALLY like it.