Another Stay sail question????

[Scott Dunsworth]

I am not a sailor yet. The only sailing I have done is 100 hours or so in my Penobscot 14 with a lug rig. So I don't know anything about staysails, how they work or rigged.

Any pictures or info would be appreciated. The little bit I gathered from Grahams reply it sounds very desirable to have one. My Belhaven plans show one outlined but I really can not tell a lot about it. Graham? or anyone else?

Thanks

Scott

[JeffM]

I'll second that request. I'd seen a related post or two, but have never seen the thing in action, nor have any idea how it is rigged, tacked, etc. Especially single-handed.

Jeff CS20

[Travis Votaw]

I'm about to find out how to do all this. I have a staysail for Pilgrim (Princess 22) and am ready to install the deck fittings and some kind of rigging on the end of the staysail boom. I already have a block at the mizzenmast head for the halyard. I don't know exactly where to install the eyepads on the deck yet for the tack to hook up to. I'm going to have to hoist the staysail and check out the fit before doing that. I'm not sure how to rig the sheet either, except I think it will be a single part that will be led around the mast when tacking and re-attached to the end of the mizzen boom, maybe through a snatch block, or maybe leave the sheet reeved through a bullet block that can be attached/re-attached to the end of the boom with some kind of snap hook.

Maybe Graham will give us some advice :?

[Kidd]

There is a good discussion of stays'l usage back on page 5. The thread is down wind sailing. Good pictures and it gives a little insight. I would like more information about how it is rigged though.

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2623

[Designer]

You need an eyestrap on each side of the boat about 6" to 1'6" depending on the boat, aft of the main mast and screwed into the inwale or toe rail. The tack always attaches to the windward eye. Becauses the mizzen mast is unstayed, the halyard has to do double duty as a running backstay which is cleated off between 15" and 24" aft of the mizzen mast and as far to windward as you can. For instance on my CS17 I put the cleat upside down under the carlin because I sit on the side deck in that area and I did not want the cleat to poke into my back when I lean against the coaming.

The halyard needs a stopper knot between 6" and 12" above the sail which stops against the halyard block.

To set up the tack pennant, hoist the sail and cleat the halyard with the stop against the block at the top of the mast and then tie about 3' of 1/8" line to the tack of the staysail. Pass the line through a snap shackle clipped to the windward eye and wind the line between the tack and the snapshackle to use it up and tie it off.

For the sheet I tie a small block to the aft end of the mizzen sprit. On the CS17 I only use 3/16" line for the sheet and for the Princess I would 1/4'. I use the same size line for the halyards.

[Brent]

A few details of the staysail taken over the weekend...

[Kidd]

Thanks for the new pictures. I, like scott am not yet a sailor. This is the first thread that really kind of makes the stays'l make sence to me. I feel like now I almost know how it works.

[JeffM]

My thanks, also! My boat's not due to be wet for months, but I'm already thinking about fooling around with a piece of polytarp. One thing I haven't figured out, though, is how to mount a block for the halyard/backstay when I have sleeve luff sails.

[Kidd]

It looks like (from the pictures in the post linked above) the sails do not go completely to the top of the mast. If this is the case you could put the block above where the sail ends.

[JeffM]

Graham,

Can I presume the larger distances for placing hardware apply to the cs20? I don't know when I'll get around to making a staysl, but I'm about to deck cs20#65 and I want to put in backing blocks for any potential hardware while I'm at it. I figure to use nylon deck cleats for the tack so it can do double-duty for a dock line, and 18" aft of the mainmast seems about right for that. I'll borrow your idea of a cleat under the carlin.

Do you have a drawing of a staysl for the 20 that would enable me to make one out of polytarp or some such?

[Travis Votaw]

I just got back from the BEER 05 cruise in Pensacola. I took my Princess 22, Pilgrim, along. It was an 1,865 mile round trip, not counting the sailing This was the first opportunity I'd had to sail the boat on anything except short sails in a small lake in OKC. There is something to be said for being to sail 28 miles on the first day, mostly all on the same tack

In light airs, the boat seemed a little slower than some of the masthead sloop rigs, but when the wind picked up, she really comes into her own. One of the days was about a 12 mile beat to windward where the wind picked up to around 20 mph with some higher gusts. Most of the other boats had to reef down, but I never did, nor did I feel the need. The Princess sailed fairly flat and we got the rail down to within about 8 " of the water a few times.

The boat is a very dry sailer compared to most of the other boats I've ever sailed on. We never took ANY water into the cockpit on that windward beat, and very little onto the cabin, though I did close the windows.

The most fun was sailing with the staysail. I used it on two different days and opposite tacks. The sail set very well and I was amazed at how hard it pulled. It added 2 mph to boat speed in winds I would estimate at 10 to 12 mph. In setting the sail, I discovered that if I got the mizzen set where I wanted it on any given tack, I could then sheet the stays'l separately to get it drawing properly.

The boat would sail somewhat closer than a beam reach with the way I have the tack pad eyes located. They are about 4" inboard of the rails and a few inches back from the mainmast tabernacle. I located them by hoisting the mizzen and holding the tack down to determine where to put them. As Graham said above, you tack the sail down to the windward side when sailing.

I used a bronze pelican hook on the tack of the staysail to make it easy to attach to the padeyes. There's probably about a foot of space between the sail and pelican hook. At the head of the staysail, I used a regular sail shackle. Also, at the peak, I tied a knot in the halyard about 8" above the shackle to form a stopper to help stabilize the mast when using the halyard as a running backstay. I located a nylon cleat on the outside of each of the coamings to tie the halyard/running backstay to. They are located about 30" aft of the mizzen tabernacle and seem to located ok to help support the mast. For the staysail sheet, I attached a ss loop aft of the mizzen sheet block on the mizzen sprit and put a single block there attached with another pelican hook. The mizzen sheet reeves through this block and leads to a cleat on the side of the mizzen tabernacle. Since this sheet is single part, to tack the staysail, I could remove the block on the mizzen, move it round the mast with the sheet still reeved, and re-attach it to the sprit. Of course, I would have to let the sheet go at the mast also and cleat it back on the new tack. The two times I've used the staysail so far, I haven't needed to tack the boat with the staysail up.

As an aside, We sailed through the fleet with the staysail up, and the only thing faster was a Catalina 250 which I could not pass, and a single guy sailing a Sea Pearl, who passed up everybody

The Princess 22 is a great little boat and very comfortable to be on. I slept aboard 4 nights and was not sore like I thought I would be. (I'll be 69 in August :shock: ) I have a ladder on the transom and by holding onto the gallows, even I with my replaced knees can get back aboard without any problem.

I apologize for the length of this post, but thought you might be interested in hearing about the boat.

Sail On!

TV

[Howard]

Travis:

Thanks for the post. Very informative!

I had planned to join you folks for the BEER Cruise.....regretably that ugly four letter word (work) got in the way. And aside from four days of sailing, the main reason I wanted to come was to see your boat.

Now that you have a few open water miles under your keel, I have some questions for you about the Princess. Really just questions on the sailing features of the boat.

Under most beating conditions, when sailing comfortably, what angle would you say the boat heels to?

How close to the wind are you able to point? Will she tack through 90 degrees or better actual? Do you have any feel for the degree of leeway she makes when beating?

If you had to reef, at about what wind speed did that occur and what was your angle of heel when you decided to drop some sail?

What would you recken your best boat speed under sail was? Not a surfing speed, just the best boat speed under sail?

The more I study the type, the more appealing these boats are to me. Especially for use in the type of area you were in. I'm just curious as to how they behave as compared the typical plastic keel boat.

Howard

[Howard]

Ooops. Two things went wrong. First....I meant to send that as a private message. Second.....I missed the 2nd paragraph. I think Travis already answered my questions.

[Travis Votaw]

Looking back at my track on the gps, I didn't ever tack within 90 degrees. However, I was maintaining good boat speed to windward by not pointing too close. 6.5 to 6.8 mph was common. The fastest I've gotten it to was 8.7 mph on a reach in about 20 mph winds with main and mizzen up. On the beat, I'm not sure the board was all the way down sinice I had never marked the cb pennant when it was all the way down.

The boat will definitely sail to windward with the board all the way up. It will make a fair amount of leeway, but you could sure sail up to a windward shore in shallow water with only the 1' draft

[Scott Dunsworth]

Travis it is great to hear out your Princess did. She is a fine boat.

I was getting excited when you where talking about how she handled. I was imagining what it must of felt like. I have been in a lets get it done mold with my Belhaven. Not in a way that short cuts are in order but in a way that I want her right and in the water.

Did you get some pictures of her sailing down there?

Scott

[Guest]

Travis, I several questions concerning your Princess., as I have the set of plans. I looked at Tony Day's hull yesterday, and that is one big boat for the size. I do not want to hijack this thread, and will send you a mail later. I have made attempts to contact Mr. Jones, living messages, as I know he is out of town, but thought he was checking with his messages.

[Travis Votaw]

Oyster, I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can.

Charlie and Laura have been isolated pretty much to their boat and I don't think he has been monitoring any websites. They were trying to make it to Pensacola for the BEER cruise but had motor trouble and did not get there before it was over. They have communicated through some of the posters on the Trailer Sailor Bulletin Board.

BTW, everyone says that the Princess looks bigger than 22' when they first see it.

[Dale Niemann]

There is a very nice photo of Travis boat at the BEER event on our local sailing club site. Go to #9 and look for it.

Sorry, it does not show the Staysail.

http://members.ij.net/wctss/wctss/photo.htm

[JeffM]

I am decking CS20#65 and am thinking about hardware. I've already ordered a staysl from Graham & Carla. I notice that the staysail tack is mounted far to windward. What's the reason for having the staysl so far out of line with the other sails? I was figuring to make deck cleats nearer the centerline do duty to hold the tack, but noticed Graham specified mounting tack hardware in the inwhale. Also, how will I arrange a block for the halyard/backstay on a mast with a luff sleeve? Will I need a cut-out in the sleeve to accomodate?

[Travis Votaw]

Jeff, since I have sail track on my Pr 22, I don't know the answer to your mast sleeve question.

I mounted the staysail tack padeyes 4" inside the rail and slightly aft of the main tabernacle. The sail seems to draw very well in this location.

It looks like that if the tack were located closer to centerline of the boat the staysail might "rob" air trying to fill the main. The staysail does a great job running and reaching and will still draw on a course a little forward of a beam reach.

I'm sure Graham will have a better explanation for your questions.