Sail design... CS 20

[Rob Blackburn]

I am now pondering sails.....

I have read all the posts on the subject and spoken to Graham.... but then I found this picture on the web. I admit it has a boom but that is not a big problem I don't reckon.

It shows a luff pocket sail with a horizontal reef. I was thinking I might do the mizzen in this configuration and leave the main as per the plans.

This would then give you another out for when the southerly buster hits you out of a clear blue sky. I just can't imagine myself being able to manhandle the mast out on the water if it gets nasty. You would have to have a halyard arrangement though which gets away from the simplicity inherent in the design.

Otherwise just go with the Gordy rotating rig reefer... and use that for those blowy days.

But overriding this are Grahams comments are that he just feathers.... So maybe I am over intellectualising this as they say.

I have noticed though that on some of the photos of the CS 20 there are a couple of leech (leach?) battens. Should I go with them or not?

Rob Blackburn

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[Travis]

Phil Bolger's book 100 Small Boat Rigs offers pros and cons about different sail combinations on the cat-ketch. I don't have a copy in front of me, but it might have some info for you.

[Gordy Hill]

Rob,

I wouldn't THINK of replacing my sprits. I'd suggest you go with them first. They're the least costly anyway. After you've sailed it a bit my guess is you won't want to change.

[Joe]

What is the Gordy Hall rotating reef system?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hey Rob, the rig you show in that picture is like our reefing Spindrift configuration, so I'm very familiar with it. For those who need/want reefing, there is the track/halyard configuration for the Core Sound models. It was not intended that someone should be trying to remove the mast as in the smaller boats, underway in a blow. This configuration allows the reefing to be done from the cockpit if the lines are led aft. This still allows you to have all the virtues of the sprit and have full single or double reefed sails. Believe me I am fully familiar with the southerly busters!!!! The use of track generally dicatates the use of a single piece mast...but as these can be carried as shown in several of the pictures on our site and the CD - this is usually not an unwarrented trade-off for reefing.

You may wonder - or someone reading this may wonder - why we are so seemingly "hung-up" on the use of sprits rather than booms. The greatest virtue is that the sprit is so much more docile than booms.

The reason is that it eliminates the twisting off and the heavy aheet loads - and the need for vanging. A jibe is no big thing - you don't end up with sheets and lines flailing and flying booms taking your head off. The boat sails wing and wing so easily you don't even have to move your posterior to do it.

Another one of the virtues of these boats - the cat ketches - is the ability to have the sails flagged forward of the mast - no death roll - and it allows perfect down wind landing. You can not have the sails forward of the mast with a standard boom arrangement - unless go to the trouble and expense of setting up a rotating mast system.

I wish that before even thinking of changing to boom system, a person could take a ride with me on a sprit rigged boat and experience the ease first hand. Everyone who has experienced it says that they could not believe the difference - how relaxed it is....you can be sailing like a bat our of hell on any point of sail and without the stress, the shouting and jumping about to push, pull, vang, tack etc....which makes for a happier crew. After experiencing and understanding the options, based on first hand knowledge, not hearsay and other peoples experience, if a person wants to consider another option, I have no problem with it.

And before everyone thinks I am just having an ego-whine here, let me add that I am constantly saying the same thing about other peoples designs. Folks come and ask me to change a rig or some other point on a design even before it is a known factor. I also tell this my survey clients when they buy a new (to them) boat not to immediately order new sails...but to get out find out how the boat handles - what characteristics she has. The old sails may not be great, but it will allow you to make sound decisions on new sails. Does the boat have weather helm? or heavy helm? can reconfiguration help? can we change the CE with sail cut and rig tune enough to help?

I hate to cut through the romance, but there is a fair amount of engineering here...as dull as the number crunching may be in comparison, modern knowledge of hydro/aerodynamics have made great improvements in achieving consistent performance objectives in design.

Nuf' said. I'm gong to try to post some pictures of the reefed sails on a Core Sound with this track/halyard configuration. I'll probably have to e-mail them to Frank - as I'm still having some technical difficulties - the site still insists I am a guest - which I am, I guess.

Graham

[Brent]

Rob, If I read your post correctly you are planning to keep the sprits, but are considering putting a reefing option on the mizzen. Correct me if I did not get that right.

Be aware that reefing only the mizzen, wether the main stays up or gets furled, may result in the boat helm being out of balance. In a blow this could get tricky, the boat will want to bear off if the main is still up and drawing. If the main is down the boat will want to head up. Makes for a long trip home in a blow.

I am thinking that if reefing is used it should be used proportionally on both main and mizzen.

[Frank Hagan]

Don't know why the forum is treating Graham so badly! Here are the pictures he emailed:

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[Greg Luckett]

Frank,

Did I miss something here????? Is someone on this forum treating Graham badly, or were you joking? I am distressed if Graham feels mistreated and I hope it is not true.

Greg Luckett

[Frank Hagan]

Frank' date='

Did I miss something here????? Is someone on this forum treating Graham badly, or were you joking? I am distressed if Graham feels mistreated and I hope it is not true.

Greg Luckett[/quote']

No! Not anyone here, but the software itself! For some reason, it won't accept Graham's log in after he registers, which is why he has posted as "Guest" so often. I'm not sure what it is, but a couple of people have had problems where they register, and when they come back, the software won't recognize their log in name and password ... then if they try to re-register, it tells them the username is taken, etc. I think it may have to do with the cookies the forum software uses to recognize people (when people delete all their cookies, and then log in, it seems to help.)

[Rob Blackburn]

Oops. I did not make myself too clear on rereading this post. sigh. I am definitely going to use the sprits. It seems too simple.

I have reread all this and think as I sort of suggested I will just do the simplest thing and follow the plans and if I need to make things more complicated I will.

I guess the thing that diagram suggested to me was that I could have the luff pocket, the tapered mast, the sprits and a simple form of reefing by either not having the luff pocket up to the reef or having a zipper/velcro luff at that point.... You would not want the full battens obviously as you could not roll the sail up around the mast but that is why I wondered about the leach batterns. If you have them much like my laser then you can't really wrap it around without taking them out.

We just came back from ghosting around our river/sailing club this afternoon and when I thought about it most if not 95% of our days are lighter rather than heavier so reefing is likely to be rare really.

I am sorry if I implied I was ignoring Grahams advice, just wasting time at work and downloading stuff more the problem.

I had a Norwalk Island Sharpie 26 with a cat ketch with booms, one manageable and one enormous. The sprits have to be an improvement.

Cheers and thanks

Rob

[Ed Hawkins]

What would be the positives and negatives of lacing the sails to the mast. If done properly (back an forth instead of spiral wound) the sail should travel freely up and down. I think you could reef pretty easily like this. Does anyone have experience with this method?

[Brent]

Ed, I have been thinking along the same line. I dont quite follow the comment about "done properly (back an forth instead of spiral wound)". I was thinking that spiral wound would help the sail make it over the diameter changes in the mast. Please clarify if you see some concerns with spiral lacing.

When it come to reefing I was concerned that maybe the lacing would become loose due to the slack in the reefed and stowed section of sail. I thought this might be addressed by hooking the downhaul to the lacing when reefed to keep all tight.

I like the idea of a laced sail with reefing capability...If it can be made to work decently.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

If you are using the multi-pieced mast (which has 3 different diameter sized) lacing is probably about your only choice. I see no way to install a track in such a configuation. I think this will make reefing combersome while underway. Rolling the sail around the mast may be the most practical reefing alternative here.

[Frank Hagan]

Ed' date=' I have been thinking along the same line. I dont quite follow the comment about "done properly (back an forth instead of spiral wound)". I was thinking that spiral wound would help the sail make it over the diameter changes in the mast. Please clarify if you see some concerns with spiral lacing. [/quote']

Back-and-forth lacing reduces the amount of friction on the mast, making it easier to hoist, reef and dowse the sail. Spiral lacing also works, especially on small boats, but a lot of the references recommend the back-and-forth method. I have a brief review of the method at Gaff Rig Page on Mainsail Lacing, and here is an illustration from John Leather's Gaff Rig Handbook:

[Charlie Jones]

I sail a John's Sharpie from CLC- 18 foot cat ketch. She was originally built using booms, and we sailed her that way for a few times. Then I built sprits and redid the boat using the sprit booms.

I'll not be changing back!! I now have a couple of extra booms, really nicely finished and I think quite useless for this type boat The sprit booms make the boat way much simpler to rig, since now every thing is identical. Plus the sheet loads dropped enough that we were able to do away with one part on each sheet setup.

Here's a shot of the sharpie sitting on the beach with a reef tied into each sail, and the new sprits set up. The sails are set on tracks.

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[Mike Vacanti]

Charlie,

Regarding the CLC Jon's Sharpie I have a question about using sail track with sprit booms. When the mainsail is let out all the way to port does the sprit rub against the sail track?

Thanks,

Mike

[Charlie Jones]

Mike- as you can see in the pic, we set the sprits on opposite sides on each mast. The sprit doesn't seem to hit the track because the snotter tightens up and holds it off. There is only so much play in it when it crosses the mast, so it can't touch. Plus the track is very close to the mast.

[Pat Kelly]

I use the three piece mast with a sail track, I put a tapered fiberglass transition collar between the three diameters Graham suggested. Sail track bends through these transitions pretty well and reefing is done like the big guys do it. I find that in a decent breeze the masts rotate in their steps to where the track is on the lee side of the mast. In light airs, I do the rotating. The sprit only rubs on the mast, not the track. If I could get my digital camera back from whom I lent it to, I would try my hand at posting a photograph or two.

Pat

[Ed Hawkins]

Pat,

It would be great to see some pictures. Could you provide some details as to what type/brand of track, how it's attached, how it's aligned, where you bought it? I know it's a lot to ask but this seems to be a good system.

[Brent]

Charlie, Pat, and others with reefing sails on sail track,

Does the position of the snotter on the mast need to change as the sail is reefed? Is it important to be able to adjust up or down the point where the snotter connects to the mast?