25 FOOT CRUISER BUILT FOR TWO

[Scott Dunsworth]

Just thinking again :???: A 25 footer with near 6 foot head room and a bit beamy for 25 foot. I was thinking in the Belhaven looks with rounded chines strip built and a fixed keel. I thinking trailering maybe once or twice a year max. What got me to thinking is if a belhaven could be stretched about 25% all this could be possible. Also it could be built in the shop I now have. Unlike the 32 footer I was wanting. I know I could design the interior layout, but the hull shape and balancing would have to be left to a pro. I'll make a rough drawing of the exterior and post it. Graham please don't laugh to hard just feel pity on my sole. :sad:

PS I hope everone is having fun at the messabout, miss all of you.

Scott

[Scott Dunsworth]

Sorry I posted the wrong drawing the first time.

[Gordy Hill]

Hi Scott,

I think you should keep the beam below 8'6" to be legal trailering in most states. I like the companionway offset, especially since the mizzen mast is right there, but it looks like you'd have someone step up onto the seat and then down the steps. I'd move it as close to center as possible taking into account the mizzen.

If the centerboard were on the same side as the companionway it would leave a huge area on the other side for a double bed quarter berth. ....or a head with a jacuzzi ...or a dinette...

The swim platform might require an inboard rudder. More problems than it's worth. Maybe a "sugar scoop" transom with a cutout for the rudder could work. I've been trying to mock that up on my own imaginary boat.

You might want to swap the stove and icebox. It can really be handy when the icebox is also accessible from the cockpit. It's much easier to load the ice and a nice cold sasparilla is always close at hand.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Gordy I was wanting to have a fixed keel for a few reasons. Mostly to completely open up the interior to many possibilities. Also I was planning to have the rudder inboard to have a huge full swim platform.

I am trying to get away from what I call the pop up camper sendrone. We would like most everything as permanent and in its place as possable. I don't want to have to move the sink to cook then move and put away the stove to do dish's. Etc.....

We would like to be able to stay on her 2 to 4 months a year in Florida. So things for us at least must be pretty laid back and easy to access. We would propably do a marina 2 nights a week to get off the boat, fuel up,pumpout and water.

I guess I am just trying to get 32 feet of boat into 25. As for trailering it would be once or twice a year max if that. We can keep a boat on Kentucky lake for about $800 year. Everywhere in the world is accessable by water from there, except inland lakes.

By brother is leaving from there next week for 1,2,3 years for south Florida and the islands. So it's good place for summer sailing and within 2 or 3 weeks you can be in the Gulf.

I like the big super insulated ice boxes that drain to the outside. Most production boats are designed to sleep 5-8 and waste a lot of space doing that. I think if one was designed for the comfort of two a 25 could be enough boat.

One main reason I like the big swim platform, my brother built a one on his 25 Coronado and it is handy for the dink, swimming and a very good BBQ platform. Also he built a stainless rack for his solar panels to be completely out of the way.

I think I can build this boat with 90% local red ceder for the hull and Birch ply on the inside, with good marine ply for the decks.

I'm looking to build something a little more than a camp cruiser. As near to a liveaboard as a 25 can be.

Scott

[Scott Dunsworth]

I laded my theoretical 25 out on graft paper to scale today and the interior layout works pretty darn close.I really believe maybe misguided, that this boat is possible if designed for two. Although the position of the masts may have to interfear with the interior after a pro balances this boat out. BUT, Can I get 5'10 to 6' head room? Without her looking like a very ugly duck is yet to be proved. Which must be very difficult because I haven't seen many production boats this length without a pilot house that are sweet to look at. The only way I can visualise this being possable is to have the cabin sole well below the waterline. That means a deeper than average keel. It seems like in one of my conversations with Graham a few years back he told me it takes around 28 feet to have standing head room on a boat to make it also pleasing to the eye. I hope I didn't misunderstand what he was saying.

But it looks to my untrained mine if I can make her deep enough that the head room could be achieved. That kind of head room is only needed right down the middle of the cabin, so it really doesn't matter to me if she drafts another 6 to 10 inch's.

Gordy brought up some intersting and legitimate thoughts about the wide beam. But trailering is my last concern, comfort is #1

I know with a deeper draft boat, and with a fixed keel I'll have to get out of some of the bad habits I have developed with my Belhaven. First I'll have to to start navigating shallow water which I have never really done. She just goes about anywhere, without much thought. While I'm talking about the Belhaven, I got to look over one of the more famous pocket cruisers around, the Montgomery 17 a very nice well designed boat. BUT I would not, personally take two new ones for my Belhaven 19.

Another legitimate thought that Gordy brings up is the inboard rudder. Sense I am planning a fixed keel I'm not to worried about the rudder. I would like the motor (15 to 20hp) under the cockpit sole between the keel and the rudder. I'm not that worried about damage of ether being behind the keel. I know the type of boating I do ( a lot of rivers and the wind is ether on your nose or behind you) and a quite motor is almost as important as standing headroom so under the cockpit should do the trick.

Just some more thoughts from a DREAMER :D

Scott

Frank I now realize I probably should have started this thread under designs forum, so feel free to move it if you wish.

[Tom Lathrop]

Scott, you are making a start on a long journey.  I predict many many detours and changes of direction along the way.  Gordy's comments are pertinent.  You would tire of making that trip to the cabin real quick, especially if the boat is on starboard tack.  You want standing headroom and don't want a pop up on a 25 footer.  There is a reason so few are seen.  Don't disparage the poptop too much.  In warm climates, they are a blessing and standing headroom underway is overrated.  Fine on a bigger boat but too many compromises on a smaller one.

What is that motor well in the cockpit?  Many 25 footers achieve low draft and a lift keel without intruding on the interior.  8' 6" beam is plenty on such a small boat and trailerability can become a great asset..

[Scott Dunsworth]

Tom all you say is true for sure. I'm at this point right now that a poptop is a very distant 2nd. I rebuilt a Catalina 22 with a poptop. It is a nice feature on the boat, but once you get to anchor you have to undog the roof, lift up and lock it to the mast, then get the top cover out and snap it around the cabin and down the companion way. Then to get in and out of the cabin you zip in and out like a tent. I know this is only takes about 10 minutes but its just something else that has to be done and undone every day. Same way with a foldout table, I would build it pretty well permanent but with a little effort could be used as a berth. But primarily stationary. After spending well over two hundred nights aboard my Belhaven, I just want to back the hook in and make a cold one. Don't misunderstand me I haven't seen a 19 foot boat, that I would take over the Belhaven. It trailers easy, sails good especially with someone like Brent at the helm and there is a lot of useable space for a 19. But as I said earlier, I want to get away from the pop up camper sendrone. I can keep my Belhaven for trailered trips. I'm after as beamy comfortable 25, 26 foot liveaboard boat that can be built. It would be left in a slip 99% of the time. But I don't want it to look like a house boat with a sail, or a Bogler design ether.

As for the motor well, I looked over a 26 Tanzer a few months ago and it had a 15 hp OMC saildrive under the companion way. It basically looks like a outboard without a engine cover. The lower unit looks like any outboard and was mounted behind the keel a few feet. So I was wondering why not a regular outboard in a well below the cockpit sole? I know I would have to make ventilation accommodations, but it could be done with a very small opening for the lower unit and a fresh air intake. If you have motor problems or just want to change the lower unit fluid all you would have to do is open the cover and pull her out. Also in rough water the lower unit is going to stay in the water.

I thought very seriously about buying the Tanzer. It had standing head room, but wasted so much space trying to make it a 5 or six sleeper. No real head, fold down table and a lot wasted space that could have been put to good storage use if designed with some thought besides trying make her a 6 person overnight boat.

As you said Tom it would be a long journey and after I hit my head on the wall a dozen times I may have a headace.

Scott

[Tom Lathrop]

We moved down to a Catalina 22 from an Alberg keelboat after moving inland some years ago.  Turned out to be a great little boat.  I seldom actually used the top cover, just used the pop top for headroom and ventilation at anchor.  If there were mosquitoes or rain, I took the top down.  Once in the FL Keys, we left the top up with cover on for several days and made small jaunts that way.  Its a compromise for sure but that little boat became a big one because of it.  We replaced the 22 with a new Catalina 25 with the pop top and cover.  Strange to say, we never, even once, used the cover while we owned the boat.  When the boat was sold, the cover was still folded just as new.  Often used the pop top though and enjoyed the cool air that it gave us while our friends on larger enclosed boats were sweating down below.

The main point is that we never enjoyed any boat more than the little Cat 22..

[JeffM]

Building a boat is such a huge expensive job, I'd say buy the Tanzer and gut the interior.

[Hirilonde]

I thought very seriously about buying the Tanzer. It had standing head room, but wasted so much space trying to make it a 5 or six sleeper. No real head, fold down table and a lot wasted space that could have been put to good storage use if designed with some thought besides trying make her a 6 person overnight boat.

In an interview of Carl Alberg regarding the Triton being a family cruiser that sleeps 4, Carl has nothing good to say about the family or 4 part.  He called the salesmen who insisted on 4 berths prostitutes.  He says a 28 foot boat is a 2 person cruising boat.  What ever you choose to do Scott, setting a 25 foot or so boat to sleep 2 and have good accommodations to support that is the way to go.

When I did the almost total refit of my Renegade (27 feet) I added storage outboard of the 2 main salon settee/berths.  This made them less comfortable for sleeping.  But the added storage and the comfort this created for 2 person cruising was more than worth it.  In stead of a 4 person table I kept the 2 person convertible table/settee that stays in the table mode 99% of the time.  It serves as chart table under way and dining table at anchor.  I have an enclosed head, but large people find it very confining to use.  The center of the main salon is wide open and nothing folds out into it.  When stuck below in crumby weather having a place to move about is wonderful.  I don't recommend a lot of clutter.  Funky storage spaces, fold out things and such seem appealing, but elbow room is what you want when cooped up.

The Renegade has standing head room in the salon.  Well, it has 5' 9" in the center near the companionway and some what less outboard and foreward.  Any more than this on a 27 foot boat creates a really ugly coach house and windage issues under way.  Headroom on boats in the mid 20s becomes a real challenge.  It also becomes a matter of compromises (ok, everything in design is a compromise).

I think you are on the right track in deciding on what is important for a 2 person cruising boat.  You are being very realistic about what you can actually achieve vs. what the salesman might tell you.  Check out the Pearson 26.  This is in my opinion one of the best cruising boats 26 feet and under.  Good luck figuring out what is for you.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Jeff the Tanzer would be the smart choice, cost and time wise. But I'm seriously not that bright. I enjoy the building and watching a boat come to life almost as much as being out there on her.

Hirilonde, Thanks for some encouraging thoughts. I have looked at some Pearsons, Ericsons and there on my list of production boats. I just keep running this thru my mind. Most production boats are sloops with the mast bulkhead or mast crutch in the way and made for too many people. A custom catketch with the masts out of the way and a lower center of effort on the sail rig, it could be done with a little deeper rounded bottom. Even on a boat 25 to 26. I'm not talking about a planning hull, but a deeper rounded hull. I'm not after a performance boat, just a comfortable seaworthy boat to spend a LOT of time on. Probably four months at a time.

Scott

[Hirilonde]

Hmmm, actually, our Charlie Jones is cruising right now in a Rhodes Meridian.  This is another great choice for 25 feet.

The down side of the Meridian, or other production displacement boats is the trailering part.  It can be done, but launching and retrieving is not easily done and only in limited places.  Lots of compromises to sort out.

[Tom Lathrop]

[quote author=Hirilond

[Scott Dunsworth]

My brother and wife are now cruising on a 25 foot Coronado and have told me basically there's no way to make a 25 that comfortable.

I disagree, just for  :grin: entertainment :grin: what do you all think????? 

Let her fly. I had one email that asked are you NUTS and another that said that it may  possable but a challenge.

Every thought is usefull in some way, so please let your thoughts go. Just remember my intended use for the boat.

Scott

[Ken_Potts]

  I hate to say it Scott, but if you're looking for comfort in a trailer boat you might want to whisper "MacGregor" under your breath just quiet enough so your wife doesn't hear you.

  Now that we're past that, we can talk about boats that are somewhat comfortable, but also cool.

  I'll take an EC22 or a Princess or that sweet Meridian I saw grounded at the end of a dock a couple weekends ago...  Come to think of it I almost DID take that boat

[Scott Dunsworth]

Ken Trailering is the last thing on my priority list, if there at all. Comfort and possibility are #1.

Hope you had fun at the messabout, with your personality I can't imagine not. I had a very good time last year talking with you. Maybe I'll see you there next year and we can take my Belhaven out for all she can stand sail!!!

I normally only push her where the rigging rattles when I'm responsible for only myself, but with another seasoned catketch sailor it may be fun to push the limits.

Scott

[PeterP]

Scott, just out of curiosity - what is wrong with Princess 26 -plans for which are available now. Or do you insist on round bottom? PeterP

[Ken_Potts]

Sorry, Scott - I transferred my trailermania to you.  I've re-read your requirements and I have a new suggestion.  If comfort is #1 I think you might want to look at a houseboat with a sailboat tied up to it.  You can get full standing headroom on a 25' houseboat very easily.

I know the houseboat isn't what you're looking for but I had to mention it.  You're looking for a sailboat with comfort as the #1 priority, so you might want to think about a catamaran.

Okay, I know you're not looking for a multihull, either.  I'm just trying to cover the bases.

If you're going to put the cabin sole lower than usual, you'll be putting your feet down where the keel usually lives.  If you do that you'll have to make the keel wider.  If you make the keel wider you'll have to compensate with more ballast or a narrower boat (which would take away from comfort).  I once (pre 9-11) talked to a guy who mentioned that he used to give his dad depleted uranium for ballasting his RC sailboats.  That might help get the floors down far enough for standing headroom.

Sorry, I'm not really adding anything constructive here, I'm just sort of rambling for the fun of it.

  I'd love to sail with you sometime, but I may not make it back to another B and B messabout.  I'm moving to Australia in the next few months.  Hmmm - Would you like to buy a CS17 to tie up next to your new houseboat?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Peter I really like the 26 but no standing head room. Actually I visited Graham with the intentions of of buying the 26 plans and ended up with the Belhaven. At that time the 26 plans where not done but far enough along that I could have started one. At the time I thought it was only going to be me using the boat. With an occasional day sail with the family, so I went with the Belhaven.

Also spending so much time aboard, the round chines would be a lot quieter at anchor.

Now Ken I stated earlier no houseboats with a sail and nothing that looks like a Bolger ether. :grin: Maybe a lobster boat with a sail would work. :grin: A motor sailer!

Scott

[hokeyhydro]

From Ken: "I once (pre 9-11) talked to a guy who mentioned that he used to give his dad depleted uranium for ballasting his RC sailboats. "

Actually, the AMYA (American Model Yachting Assoc.) banned depleted uranium and mercury for keels decades ago, way before 9-11.  Yes, model yacht racers are just a vicious in the pursuit of a win as big boat boys.

And for Scott - might be just me, but I think 25' can be made comfy. Course I do not absolutely need standing headroom.  I be 6' tall but at my age reclining suits me just fine  :-)