when to reef downwind

[Randy Jones]

I'm uncertain about when to reef my CS17 when running downwind.  I was out in Lake Washington on Friday when the wind picked up to about 15 knots at about the time that I needed to turn downwind and run home.  Alone in an empty boat I'd need to reef for closehulled sailing, but downwind it didn't seem to matter.  I continued without reefing and maintained a very happy 6+ knots with a balanced helm and without any kind of side-to-side "roll".  Nothing for the record books, but I was very pleased. 

In the 16 months that I've had the boat I've been reefing to avoid overpowering the boat when sailing closed hulled.  Now, I find myself wondering what drives the decision to reef a Cat Ketch when heading downwind, and what goes wrong when you carry too much sail downwind? 

Thanks

[Ken_Potts]

The next time you find yourself alone in those conditions try this - Ease the sheets until both sails are rougly perpendicular to the boat, fall off and let the sails start to fill, then keep turning gradually downwind.  You'll wish you'd brought your waterskis. :cool:

Sorry - That wasn't an answer to your question.

If you find yourself wondering if you're overpowered you probably should be reefed.  One good feature of these boats is the ability to let the sheets go when you're sailing downwind and let the sails stream out in front of the boat.  From there you can decide what else to do depending on your method of reefing. If nothing else you can let the mizzen luff and sail downwind under just the main.  It's not pretty but it might get you home.

One thing to watch out for when running dead downwind is the turn into the wind.  The sails will be stalled going downwind and once you turn to luff up the sails will start to lift efficiently and the boat can take off like a rocket.  I found that out trying to get to a dock that was on a lee shore and next to a jetty. 

[Peter HK]

Hi Randy

I'll tell you of my experience with racing dinghies long ago. I used to sail 14 ft Dinghies (an Aussie class popular at the time). They had 200 sq ft of working sail with 2 crew on trapeze. The spinnaker size ....originally limited to 250sq ft... ended up with no limitation. Spinnakers of 750-1000sq ft became the norm- a great, if at times hair raising ride. Occasionally we drove the bow under and pitchpoled.

This tells us however that sail area off the breeze can be much more than to windward- in this example more than 5 times (working area plus spinnaker =1,200 sq ft compared to 200 sq ft).

I'd say that reefing off the breeze would not be necessary unless you have double reefed to windward. This assumes you want a fast wet ride.

If conditions become anxiety-provoking then reef more. I've set up my CS17 with 2 reefs in each sail- I could run before a gale with 30 sq ft in the main only. There's no shame in slow and safe and there's plenty of great controllable fun with a lot of sail off the breeze.

It would take a lot of breeze to make a CS17 uncontrollable running downwind.

Cheers

Peter HK

[Dogdad]

In almost any sailboat, I'd rather broad reach with a jibe or two than be on a dead run.  More stable, more predictable, and the speed gain usually balances out the extra distance.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

You could go wing on wing and ease your sails more forward and spill air from them.  I prefer wing on wing when in heavy downwind air.

[Scott Dufour]

How far up the beam can you sail wing & wing before the fear of an unexpected jibe begins? And how for up the beam do you need to be for the staysail to be effective? 

[Randy Jones]

Thanks for all the responses.  I don't have a staysail at this time, so I haven't worried about where it fits in.  Wing-on-wing with the sails eased forward seems to be self-correcting in a good breeze, with the accidential jibes occurring in lighter wind.  But since reaching is faster than wing-on-wing I'll reach in light air and save the wing-on-wing for stronger winds (also good for showing off).  If I detect a consensus here it seems to be that I can run down wind with unreefed sails until things pick up to maybe 20 knots, someone gets scared, or I need to be reefed in order to handle the maneuver at the end of the downwind run.  One last question I hadn't considered - could a CS17 pitchpole or does the full bow make that unlikely?

Thanks

[PAR]

Any boat can pitch pole, but it's a rare event. Broaching, knock downs, going turtle, "death rolls" and "auguring them in" will be much more common. In the right set of conditions and/or with the right combination of screw ups, you could pitch pole pretty much anything. I watched a 90' USCG cutter get pitch poled attempting to run a nasty inlet as a young man. They were doing everything right, but then just got unlucky for the last little bit and . . .  It can happen to pretty much anyone, but is very rare and 99% of skippers will never experience anything like it, fortunately.

[Peter HK]

One last question I hadn't considered - could a CS17 pitchpole or does the full bow make that unlikely?

Hi Randy,

I agree with PAR that in extreme conditions anything can happen. The CS17 with, as you say very full bow sections, makes it unlikely. Added to that the cat ketch rig with its low centre of effort, which reduces the leverage of the sail plan in delivering a downward force at the bow, makes it very unlikely.

How far up the beam can you sail wing & wing before the fear of an unexpected jibe begins?

Hi Scott,

I'd imagine it would be possible to let the mainsheet out a long way forward of the beam and, with reverse flow in the main, get the apparent breeze on the beam. I haven't tested this but did once sail a sloop rigged 14 ft catamaran to windward, backwards, in response to a challenge- a bit like easing the main forward a lot. Tacking angle was about 150 degrees.

By letting the main go forward of the beam you can keep the tendency to jibe well controlled until the breeze is on the quarter and main would be better not wing and wing anyway.

Cheers

Peter HK

[Ken_Potts]

Remember that running wing and wing means you're going to have to jibe a sail whichever way you end up turning at the end of the run.  If you have both sails on the same tack you can round up quickly without having to plan a jibe.