Brightwork Blues

[RSdaCat]

In my defense.....I have had one helluva time... :oops:

My Dad is incensed  :shocked!:  He came down to visit and of course had to visit "her" first.  Now I am being grounded, my next "8-10 Sundays better be consumed by getting Annie back in shape!" 

I would post pictures, but to be perfectly honest I am embarrassed.  The bowsprit is rough, the hatches are worse, the rub rails and the toe rails are silvered.  :puppydogeyes: I need some real good advice (since my dads specialty is engines and transmissions not wood) on how to get all this done right. 

I know that heavy sanding will be involved, and probably no small amount of tears, and oil, and epoxy and such.  there are so many opinions out there, that I am overwhelmed.  So I thought I would come to the place I trust best, and to those whom I know do this well.

Oil? 

Epoxy?

Varnish?

Enamel?

What should I tackle first?  Where do I start?  And how do I keep this from happening in the future!!! (My daddy put the fear of (little wooden boats) G-d in me!)  Any help sorting out this would be appreciated.  And no, painting over it is not an option, like I said my daddy is mad!

[ChrisObee]

It might be easier to give advice if we could see the depth of your problem.  I take it the wood has gone grey and weathered.  there are treatments for turning that grey back to normal.  Then some sort of coating over the top.  I would epoxy first and then varnish over that.  My only question is if epoxy will go over that treatment to return the color to the wood. 

[Bikermouse]

Good to hear from you, but sorry to hear about your brightwork.

Haven't seen you since Kehilat that oncve so long ago.  I lack the experience to help much with advice, but I could maybe help with a Sunday afternoon's work sometime once you get a direction.  PM me if you want.

[RSdaCat]

Images to follow, took several pictures, and realized that perhaps I overstated a little.  It is only the rubrails that have truly lost their color and "greyed out"  the rest is still mostly "wood" colored...  :?

I have mostly decided to follow Mr. Obees advice, strip it down to bare wood, epoxy, epoxy, epoxy, and then varnish.  Does anyone have any experience with the two-part polyurethanes?

In researching I found a UV cured Varnish.....OMGoodness!!! Fabulous! but the inital outlay of $400. is waaaaay beyond even my guilt budget.

Does anyone have a favourite? or is there anything I should especially steer clear of?  I am also looking at another poly: specifically West Marines' WoodPro Plus.  I know that this will not give me the deep stellar polish of a heavy varnish coat, but everything I have read thus far seems to indicate that it really does a bang up job of protecting the wood from UV damage. (aside from opaque paint that is not an option)

And MOUSE MOUSE MOUSE!  Shalom Chaver! Shalom!

Just realized that I left my flash drive (with the pics on it) at work so the photos will have to go in a separate post.  Meanwhile I appreciate any advice, or even emotionally laden opinions.

[ChrisObee]

I use helmsman spar urethane.  You can buy it at home depot.  Very tough stuff, will last longer than varnish. 

[Bud_Wilson]

The treatment for turning grey bright work back to it's natural color is sand paper.  then a couple coats of epoxy then a couple coats of cetal. It want be as slick as varnish but it will out last it by a long shot and the uv (sun) wont cook it off. Bud

[Hirilonde]

Does anyone have any experience with the two-part polyurethanes?

Yes.  In my opinion they are the worst thing that ever happened to wood.  Man has been looking for a way to petrify wood to make it look beautious for years with no labor.  All I can say is that it can't be done unless you hide it from the sun most of the time.  If you store your boat indoors or under cover between sails you have found the only real option.

The clear LPUs may last slightly longer than varnish, but wait until you get the first blisters, or moisture coming up from behind.  Or wait until you get some staining in an area.  Now it is time to remove the stuff and start again.  With varnish you pull out your heat gun and scraper and it all comes off in very little time.  You don't even want to ponder the fun you will have trying to remove the LPU.

Epoxy is without question the best way to waterproof plywood as a base under the paint.  I question whether it is worth using as a base for varnish on solid wood trim.  I use a thinned out varnish for the base coat on bare wood because of the penetration.  I then follow up with as many coats as I can stand to apply over it with little or no thinning as needed.  I apply 3-5 coats a year on my Renegade's teak trim, then do nothing the rest of the sailing season. 

As bud says the Cetol will last longer, but I can't live with the muddy color.  Maybe I am just too vain. 

Chris prefers urethane over varnish.  I have heard more debates concerning these 2 materials than I care to remember.    I also question whether urethanes last significantly longer.  Here is another situation where the user has to decide for themselves.

A former associate of mine (professional boat builder/refitter) owns an original Herreshoff  Rozinante.  He has an unfinished teak toe rail and paints everything else.  He refuses to maintain any kind of clear finish.

Everyone is looking for a short cut.  If you want bright beautiful woodwork there is none.  At least there is none that pays off over the long haul.  I think real varnish has a rich look that no synthetic material can match.  But then I am an old fart and I am willing to pay the price for it when it comes to the brightwork on my boats.  You have to decide for yourself where to draw the line between maintainance and beauty.

[ChrisObee]

Chris prefers urethane over varnish.  I have heard more debates concerning these 2 materials than I care to remember.    I also question whether urethanes last significantly longer.  Here is another situation where the user has to decide for themselves.

I bow to your long experience.  My remarks are based on my own experience with varnish.  It always seems rather soft after it sets.  On the other hand I used the helmsman product just recently and it set up as hard as a rock. 

[Hirilonde]

Urethane is harder, I have no question about that.  Using real varnish on a cabin sole will not stand up even with no UV like a urethane.  I mortised in bronze half oval on the top of my cockpit combing as foot traffic was wearing the varnish off before the half way point in the sailing season (6 months for me up here).  Varnish is not particularly abrasion resistant.

If I am trying to make any point, it is that everyone needs to evaluate their own opinions on beauty vs. work and choose accordingly.  Learn the characteristics of the products available, assess the protection needs of the parts of your boat and make your best informed choice based on your needs/wants

[Frank Hagan]

Like everyone has said, sanding can restore the wood to its original color.  Coating it with epoxy is favored by some, but I question it.  Epoxy has very little UV resistance and is much harder to get off the wood.  My experience has been that the varnish degrades and then the epoxy under it does, but you don't notice any of the damage until the epoxy itself degrades.  And then its a bit harder to get the old epoxy off to re-varnish.  Varnish is more like a sacrificial coating that requires regular upkeep (there's a reason everyone likes those white plastic boats). 

So, being lazy, here would be my steps:  1) sand to Dad-acceptable wood color; 2) varnish with Helmsman available at Home Depot; 3) cover boat with an large car cover or other suitable material to protect it from UV.

You can do two or three coats of the varnish if you want.  You'll get a feel for it as you are doing it.  Just remember that all of these coatings are temporary.  If the boat is in the sun much at all, you will re-do the brightwork every 6 months in southern latitudes and every year in the north.  Some of the bright boats in the harbor here have their brightwork wiped down every morning and are re-coated every three months. 

I love Epiphanes varnish for my Potter; very rich, thick coating.  But I keep the thing covered all the time and re-do it every other year.  And I have very little brightwork.

[Bud_Wilson]

If you want to varnish, varnish if you want to sail ,sail. Frank hit the nail square on the head in the last six words of his post "And I have very little brightwork" Bud

[PAR]

As UV breaks down any clear coating (varnish, oil, polyurethane, epoxy, etc.) it damages from top down, but does get all the way through. This is why wood darkens under clear finishes over time, it's actually slowly burning it.

If you have clear coatings, there are three approaches other then letting nature have it way with it or paint (Cetol is diluted paint folks). The simplest coating is oil. It offers very little UV protection, darkens the crap out of the wood, isn't especially shiny and you have to recoat multiple times per year, but it is cheap. Unless you have a very traditional boat, oil coatings are more trouble then they're worth.

The word varnish now is taken to mean any clear coating, including epoxy. I'm old enough to remember the days when there wasn't anything other then plain old varnish and there weren't any options other then oil. So, when I say varnish, I mean real oil or plastic based varnish. When I mention oil, I mean real tung or linseed extract. And the polyurethanes should speak for themselves.

Varnishes come it two flavors now, traditional oil and water based. The water based stuff hasn't proven to be particularly durable, but it's close and a lot easyer to apply and clean up tools when working with it. The oil based stuff is the goo most cuss endlessly about. It's hard to apply well, requires extra care and maintenance, plus has less durability then other products. On the plus side, nothing matches the "glow" a good varnish makes on wood. There's a huge difference in quality between the cheap stuff, like MinWax Helmsman (alkyd resin) to Epifanes (phenolic resin). So, economy at purcahse is offset with durability on the work. Helmsman here in Florida, will be damaged in 6 months, while Epifanes will go longer then a year, given that neither receive any special care and daily exposure.

Lastly are the urethanes, broken into single or two part types. The single part types are about as easy and as good as you can get for your buck. They go down easy, self level, dry fast, often no sanding between coats, etc. The single part polyurethanes have been taking over the "varnish" market for several years. The down side is they don't impart the same type of "glow" a real oil based varnish does, so may think of it as a plastic coating (which it is). It's also much harder then regular oils and varnishes, so the surface needs to be relatively stable or it'll crack, check and orange peel with movement. On the other hand, it's really clear, so you can build up many coats without dramatically altering the look of the wood. The two part polyurethanes are the hardest and most durable of them all. Brands like Bristol finish are extremely durable and tough. They also cost a lot more too, so you get what you pay for. The two parts are harder to apply, but the results, if applied correctly can be mirror like.

Epoxy used under any clear coating will take damage each time it's in the sunlight. If the clear coating is in good shape and relatively thick, not much damage, but if the coating is older or worn down, the epoxy can take more damage, which also transmits more damaging UV rays to the wood. You can save some varnishes once they show signs of wear or damage, but not epoxy. Epoxy under clear coatings is a two edged sword. On one hand it stabilizes the wood's moisture content, but on the other must be protected against UV or it will break down.

Clear coatings are the hardest type of wood coating to live with. The difference between the low end and high end as far as durability can be a few years, but considerable care in-between the first coats and the touch up coats will be required or you'll be sanding (scraping is much better) down to raw wood again and starting over.

One quick note, if you have "stabilized" wood (epoxy encapsulated) then the single and two part polyurethanes will give you the best, most durable coating. If the wood isn't completely encapsulated, then it's going to "move" with moisture content changes, so you'll need a more flexible regular varnish.

[Konrad]

You've been given good advice on the technical aspects of your little maintenance project, so I'll only offer some advice regarding the psychology side of it. 

I went through this same thing with my 10 yr old Vacationer last fall.  First, figure out what your method is going to be.  Again, I defer to previous posts in this thread.  Then, find one section, and forget about all the others, and just do that one piece.  When you get it done, stand back (figuratively speaking), and take satisfaction in that one thing you just completed.  Allow yourself some positive feedback in yer brain about it.  Then do another section, and repeat.  You'll find the process more enjoyable if you do it this way, rather than viewing it as some kind of semester project hanging over your head.