Square Top Sails

[Howard]

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/article.php?get=1134

Aside from what is apparently better performance, square top sails would seem to have an advantage for cat ketch rigs. No backstay, so no problem with tacking, and since the leech is nearly vertical, the sprit doesn't need to slide forward too much to reef. And possibly, more sail area down low so the masts can be shorter.

On the dark side, it apparently takes a lot of leech tension to keep the head from twisting off.

I wonder if it's even possible to use a square top with an unstayed mast? Perhaps a small headboard and really stiff mast tip?

Unless I'm mistaken, I think the sails on the EC Skimmer represent a transition from a triangular main to a square top, with a little more roach than the other designs. 

[Charlie Jones]

Southern Skimmer? I don't think those are anywhere close to square topped.

[Designer]

High roached sails have some advantages over no roach as long as you accept the need for battens. The mast can be a lot shorter for the same horsepower which cuts down on trailing length and it might get under a few more bridges without having to lower.

I did not use square top sails For Southern Skimmer because I did not want to have to take the top batten out of the sail for the mast lowering part of the race. You will notice on square top sails that the length of the sail top of the sail is shorter than the diagonal batten which holds it up which means that the sail will not fold down because the top batten holds the sail up. On SS I adjusted the roach so that the top batten was 1" shorter the length of the leech above the batten. I could have found some quick release arrangement at the top slide but it still might not fold down enough to drop the mast without taking the sail off the mast or removing battens.

[Howard]

Southern Skimmer? I don't think those are anywhere close to square topped.

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Not square topped by a long shot, but more roach than the straight triangle designs.....like on my Spindrift. Square topped would lop off the top above the top batten. And in Sukie's photo.........

you can see the top of the mast is already bent a little, which I suppose is what more tension to clean up the twist in a square top would get you. But do that right, and you might get a nice shock absorber effect. They say wind surfers do that when they get it dialed in right. But at the length of these masts and that amount of tension, still not sure if it's even possible.....or if the performance gain is worth it.

Graham....is the problem with the top batten on a square top limited to getting it off the mast to lower the mast, or does that also include simply dropping the sail to stow it? Like a dorsal fin that won't go down? That would be a real pain on a cruising boat.

[Howard]

I guess to cut to the chase I should simply ask.......ya think some version of a square top could be used on a Princess? And I'll be the first to admit there is a difference between "could be" and "should be". Could doesn't mean you should!  ;D

[Guest LeeH]

Harry Pattison built me some great sails for my old Montgomery 17 flushdeck once. Must have been nearly 30 years ago. I had met him at a regatta in Dallas, which featured some Santana 20 regionals thing. I was racing in some other kind of boat at the time, so we had ring-side seats. Harry blue-skied the S20 fleet like I have never seen since. Good to see he's still around.

(This geezerly reminiscence has zero to do with square top sails. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming).

[Howard]

Harry Pattison built me some great sails for my old Montgomery 17 flushdeck once.

(This geezerly reminiscence has zero to do with square top sails. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming).

He also built a 150 genny and Asymmetrical for my existing M17. I think Bob Eeg is using him as his OEM sail maker for all the M boats.

Great sails and great service!  (and thanks for the comment)

[Guest LeeH]

Howard I loved that Monty more than any boat I've ever owned, and there's been a few. I sold it one time during a weak moment while oil was at about $4/bbl, my kids were hungry and a wheeler-dealer had cash in his hand. Big mistake! Sometimes I drink a bit and find myself on the internet looking for it. Tracked it down to a singer in Nashville, who emailed that he had sold it to a psychiatrist in S or N Carolina, I ferget which. An absolutely fabulous plastic boat. Don't sell yours. You'll regret it.

[Apteryx]

Curious, the language barrier.  From the subject line the first thing I though of was square tops'ls.  ;D

[Howard]

Curious, the language barrier.  From the subject line the first thing I though of was square tops'ls.  ;D

Not quit, but they say everything old is new again. On the modern version of the square top, in some respects, they resemble the old gaff sails, or the Bahamas smack rig, which had a wide head board and a lot of roach along the foot. Low and powerful. The new version is generally a higher aspect sail and they do away with the second halyard for the peak, which brings in the need for the battens to support the extra roach.

[JeffM]

I was confused, too--trying to imagine how you'd raise the yard, where you'd run the sheets with no mainyard below, etc.  But I try to keep an open mind!  (I was rather disappointed to find that's not what you were talking about!)

[Jeff MacDonald]

Sorry for arriving late to this party.

If you're just looking to make better use of the space available between the masts you could consider either the gaff-batten rig that Chapelle describes for the pound-net boats (page 130ff in American Small Sailing Craft), or a classic spritsail rig as illustrated on page 66 of the same book and described at-length in chapter 11 of R. D. Culler's Skiffs and Schooners.  Here's a link to some nice pics of a single-masted spritsail boat: http://www.flickr.com/photos/centerforwoodenboats/sets/72157605457298673/

I'm a bit of a traditionalist at heart and, after learning the ropes as it were with the standard CS17 rig, I plan to experiment with these two alternatives in order to have more sail available for light air. I don't mind sailing reefed much of the time, but I sure do dislike rowing or disturbing the peace with a motor.

[Randy Jones]

I'm happily married to my sprit boom leg-o-mutton CS17 sail rig, but occasionally wonder about alternate rigs offering more sail area as a solution to the typically light winds in my portion of Puget Sound.  I have another boat with a boomless spritsail and after sailing the two, can tell you that the sprit sail seems to generate massive power but doesn't point nearly as well and also rolls when sailing downwind.

I do think think that a lug sail cat ketch could be worth a look if you're looking for maximum sail area.  Seems it would be a trade of more area at the expense of windward work and perhaps a few other complication that I'm not qualified to predict. 

[Ken_Potts]

  If you like the stock rig but don't typically have enough wind for the CS17 (I can generally get my boat to sail in undectable wind) why not go for larger (taller) sprit-boom sails instead of changing the whole rig?  If you size the sails right you won't be changing the center of effort and (if you have the disposable income) you can always have a set of stock sails for when the wind is reasonable.

  Also, my mizzen staysail does a pretty good job of keeping me busy (and shaded) when the wind is only blowing a knot or two.  That sail is my favorite new toy  :grin:

[Jeff MacDonald]

This is kinda interesting [PDF download]:

http://bateaubois.free.fr/file/rigs.pdf

Whoever scanned the article cut off the credits, but someone somewhere said that it appeared in Yachting Monthly for July 1984.

This link indicates that the results from the first link, and more, appeared in Woodenboat #92 & #96:

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/53638

[Frank Hagan]

You could always really complicate your life and go with Gerry Hoyt's offset gaff rig:

[Doug Cameron]

That's a balanced lug rig in essence.  Matt Layden swears by them for simplicity and power.  You wouldn't think so, but they do well to windward, too.