Advice on Outboard for CS 17

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

This is the closest shot I could grab of the 2hp on Kokako - does not really show too much.

[wkisting]

I agree with Ray that the motor may not be an absolute necessity... even in barely perceptible wind, the CS20 can make appreciable progress toward her destination. In our case, the only remaining place to launch (due to very low lake levels from a 2-year drought) is in a narrow cove that is tucked away approximately 1/4" off the lake and is simply not wide enough to sail in and out of unless the wind happens to be blowing parallel to the approach. Otherwise, the motor is a necessity. But in the 8 times we've been to the lake now, with winds ranging from "calm" to 20 knots, we have never needed the motor for anything except getting out of that cove.

A big reason we made our motor bracket removable is because, as we become more experienced with our CS (and when the lake levels come back up so other launching ramps re-open), we may remove it. Many, many folks told us during the build that a motor was not a necessity since the boat sails so capably, and from what we've experienced, I agree. But for us, we also like the motor because it means we don't have to worry too much about budgeting our time to return to the dock before dark. If we're sailing and we run out of time, we can fire up the motor and head straight back without being at the mercy of the wind. We haven't actually needed to do so yet, however, because we keep finding that the CS is much faster than we were accustomed to with our last boat, so as a force of habit, we usually turn back sooner than needed, and arrive back at the ramp with time to spare. Then we stand around saying, "Man, this boat is fast" or "That would've taken twice as long on our old boat." 

[Charlie Jones]

approximately 1/4" off the lake

You need a motor for a quarter inch???

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry- just couldn't resist ;D

[wkisting]

Well, actually it's more like a LOOONNNNNG 1/2".    Can't believe I missed that. I meant 1/4-mile of course.

[Charlie Jones]

ROFL- I knew that- but HAD to pull your chain a bit ;D

[paul_stewart]

Wes was undoubtedly making an allusion to one version of Zeno's famous paradox: "A CS20 can never reach the boat ramp, but it does anyway."   First, it must travel half the distance. Then, it must travel half the remaining distance, and so on. Since half the remaining distance is always some distance, the CS20 would have to travel an infinite number of ever-smaller distances to reach the boat ramp and the docks on each side of the ramp.  That's why Wes needs a powerful motor  --to power right on through Zeno's paradox to his pair of docks.  That last 1/4" is really tough going! 

(Those of us without motors never quite get there at all.  We just give up and jump off the boat right onto the dock.)

Update:    My apologies, Wes.  Just looked at GPS display and realized an inch is a mile.    ;D ;D ;D

[Ken_Potts]

   Paul,

   There must be some sort of quantum difference between the CS17 and the CS20.  I can show you the yellow paint on the dock at Vista Point that proves a CS17 can reach a dock under sail at a fairly high rate of speed  ;D

[wkisting]

I have to agree with Ken here... What he is observing is that, in a marine setting with a hand-built boat, Zeno's paradox actually inverts and becomes Nemo's paradox, which states that even if you have all the space/distance in the world to avoid collisions with things (especially abrasive surfaces like ramps and docks), you'll hit them so often that you will lose half your bottom paint, then half again, then half again....

[paul_stewart]

Another very real option is to leave the motor at home.

I have never mounted a motor on my 20 and don't forsee ever adding one on.

Ray, thank you for eloquently stating the case for sailing the CS20 without a motor. 

I hope certain pro-motor members of my family are reading this string of posts because I would  prefer to "leave the motor at home" or leave it in the marine supply store. 

We have some beautiful 11' oars that work great.  (Even with my novice rowing skills.)

--Paul 

[Oyster]

If I can do without a motor except for extended weekend stays in some really remote region and will need to be back on some time frame, then anyone reading this post can too!!!! Planning ahead, I mean way ahead when you start for the day out in 99.9 percent with a sober skull unless you are just plain lazy, there is no reason for a motor on these day boats. Of course there are situations of heavey current in certain times of years in some regions there are exceptions, but these times are very rare and you should not place yourself in the situation where it is mandatory. If this is the case, your sailing adventure will also not be enjoyable either. SO stay home.

[wkisting]

Well, I think you guys are partly missing the point. While I agree a motor is unnecessary given the CS's capable sailing ability, there are still plenty of good reasons and benefits to having one. No one doubts that boats can and have gotten along fine without one. But it's a matter of preference. If we're laying out reasons not to have one, why not mention a few of the very practical reasons they're desirable...

A motor is an undeniable convenience for those of us who sail on inland waters where the winds are less reliable than on the coast, occasionally forcing us to wonder whether we can "risk" going for a sail if we only have a few hours before we need to be somewhere else. With the motor, we can sail out knowing, confidently, that we can return to the dock in a fast, straight line at any moment. This means we can sail more enjoyably--whichever direction we like, without needing to stay in the vicinity of the ramp or having to return early (and losing precious sailing time) because we were worried about getting back in time. I'm a spontaneous person and I certainly like the romanticism of "going where the wind blows you," but if I always had to follow that ethic, I would only find half as many opportunities to sail. As a college professor, I have a sporadic schedule that permits me to squeeze sailing in between obligatory requirements (such as going for a sail between my morning and my evening classes). But I can't be missing my evening classes and telling my employer, "Sorry, the wind died and I misjudged how long it would take to row back." The motor lets me sail and know fairly confidently that, if I misjudge the winds (or they change), I can still get back to the dock in a quick, predictable amount of time. Otherwise, I'd have to restrict my sailing to weekends only, when I don't have to worry about meetings, classes, etc.

Also, without meaning to invoke the usual fallacies about the "necessity" of a motor for safety reasons (which I disagree with), I will say that I (personally) would feel mildly irresponsible without a motor aboard at this time of year, at my level of sailing skill. If a guest fell overboard, I would like to think that my sailing skills would allow me to retrieve them quickly (I've practiced retrieving boat fenders for that reason), but I sure wouldn't want to risk their hypothermia on it. It's comforting to know that I can instantly fire up the motor and return to them in a direct, quick, controlled manner. Yes, motors can fail. Yes, oars work fine. Yes, tides and winds eventually turn favorable again. That's not the point. No one is advocating dependence on motors or denouncing the choice to go motor-less. But it makes perfect, practical sense why someone might be glad to have one aboard. I find mine very useful, and if I fell overboard, I know my wife would feel more comfortable dropping the sails and firing up the outboard--especially right now, when we've only had 8 sailing outings to get acquainted with the rig.

The only "danger" or "drawback" I see with motors is that people who have them often use them too often, like a crutch, preventing them from developing the advanced skills that make sailing safer and more rewarding for the sailor and his crew. This becomes a serious problem when, inevitably, the motor does eventually fail or run out of gas and, instead of the comparatively minor problem of missing an appointment, one finds oneself in real danger without adequate sailing skill. But hopefully folks understand this simple point: If you do get a motor, be sure not to rely so heavily on it that you never push yourself to learn to sail skillfully in difficult or unfamiliar situations.

[Ken_Potts]

  Well said Wes, but you forgot something.

  When the wind isn't blowing you can check out more fishing holes in comfort with a motor than with oars.  I find I go to more remote spots to fish under power in my CS17 than in my kayak.

  I'm still planning to get those oars made sooner or later though.

  So have you decided on which motor yet?

[wkisting]

LOL at Ray. Absolutely no offense taken.

I know what you were up to, and I didn't take any offense. And frankly, I agree with most of what you say. I just like to keep even my own penchant for sailing purism in check before we fall into curmudgeonly condemnations of motors. I didn't want francesco to feel pressured into not having one.

[Roger Peterson]

OK, Let me throw in a question. I am going to launch my CS17 in the spring and would like to ask...Has anyone used an electric trolling motor on a CS17?

I have NO experience with trolling motors but would rather go electric than gas. What thrust rating and batterys would you guys suggest? Where in the boat would you install the batterys? What kind of charging system would it require?

Small gas motors are very expensive in this part of Texas because almost everyone fishes but few sail. I'd rather spend the money on my next boat project.

(can you say PUDDLE DUCK RACER)...

Thanks for any help,

Roger

[francesco]

This has been fascinating for me as the discussion has helped sort out my decision. I have done most of my sailing in Casco Bay, Maine and Jewel Island that Ray spoke about is truly a gem (no pun intended). Since I am on holiday when in Maine, I had all day and without a motor or oars, I just found enough wind to make it or just drifted for a while until I made my mooring on Peaks Island where I have a small cottage. Time was on my side.

In NZ where I live most of the time and is on the coast, I have an opportunity to fit in a few hours sailing and in some instances with a few adjustments to my back yard, sail from the estuary when the tide is near high. The few adjustments is to sort of bull doze a bit of the garden that my wife planted. She is okay and actually made the suggestion when Richard delivered Kokako.

So, when I bought the boat from Richard with the recess already built, I thought I would buy a motor for the first time in my life. The discussion here mirrored my ambivalence and the fact that I never really used a motor on small boats. So, I was back and forth about what to do especially when the motor I wanted that Wes has, didn

[Ken_Potts]

Welcome to the ranks of powerboater, Francesco 

Oyster and Ray and Paul have lost another purist (Yes, I'm kidding) ;D

[Oyster]

Lets see if I can put this another way. I don't need no stinking motor on my sailboat  to go fishing. I have a fishing boat, matter of fact I have three fishing boats so I can be guranteed that at least one of my motors will run so I can go fishing unlike a sailor that still rows his boat when his motor that he always depends on will not start from seemingly lack of use. HEHE!!!!

Hope you have a safe flight, and come again and bring some of your upside down guys for the next get together too.

[Ken_Potts]

  I stand corrected, Captain Oyster.  It's time for me to sell the motor and build a fishing boat (any excuse is a good one, right?).  Anybody wanna buy a Honda 2hp? 

[Oyster]

   I stand corrected, Captain Oyster.  It's time for me to sell the motor and build a fishing boat (any excuse is a good one, right?).  Anybody wanna buy a Honda 2hp? 

Welllllll, for the time being until you can get that motor sold that will not start running, and because you maybe a bit rusty on your boat building skills, why don't you take a few classes, or just some plain old refresher courses, without charge too, on the proper way to fold, hold and prep some mahogany readying it for some varnish?

[paul_stewart]

There is one other aspect of the motor debate that I'd like to mention...   hanging a motor on the stern is a bit like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.   Here you've got this elegant sailboat with flowing lines that say "speed"  and then we're gonna hang a big hunk of metal on the stern?      To install a motor, I would first have to experience some sort of attitude adjustment to get over this particular hangup.   Or, switch to a boat design that has a motor well. 

Just look at the comparison photos below.  I have no idea whose beautiful boat this is (and it really is lovely isn't it!) in these authentic snapshots. In the right-hand panel you can see that the crew is very happy and the dolphins are swimming alongside.  But then in the left-hand panel you can see that they've put the motor on the stern, and WOW what a difference!  The lines are tangled, the dolphins have been frightened away, and the crew looks a bit nervous.   And that motor!  It's so... so...  visible!