30 footer

[Scott Dunsworth]

I think sometime next year I need to start on a 30 foot cat ketch. With standing head room, a private V berth, inclosed head with shower and a very nice galley.

I will sail her to the great lakes in the summer and the Bahamas in the winter. I am pure American :wink: I don't want the temp over 90 or below 60. So that sounds like a live aboard plan to me.

Should she be fixed keel, centerboarder or twin bilge keels?

I think I would like the outboard in a totaly inclosed well. Elec start and total remote controlled. But easy to get to.

Scott

[Charlie Jones]

GRAHAM!!! A potential customer for a Princess 30

Already starting to twitch with boat building withdrawal are we Scott?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Actually Charlie I need to finish the inside of my Belhaven. But a new 30x40 foot shop is in the future to do some boat building for sell projects. I am planning on retiring in the next 12 to24 months. I will have another 6 years after that when my little one is in collage. When that day comes We plan on living aboard for a few years. Just coastal stuff mainly.

But to answer your question YES I want to get back to it.

[Scott Dunsworth]

What are the disadvantages of twin bilge keels? The advantage I see is a draft inbetween a fixed keel and a centerboarder. Also no mechanical parts or trunk to deal with. I wouldn't want a fixed keel for what I want to do.

When it comes to an engine I am just thinking about economics, repair and replacement.

Scott

[Charlie Jones]

Bilge keels offer more wetted surface, therefore slightly more drag, hence slightly slower boat. No big deal really. Most sail boats are fairly slow anyway, so what's a 10th of a knot more or less to a cruiser?

I personally would opt for an outboard also, probably a 4 stroke, for what you are intending. For blue water, the inboard would be my choice, but for coastal, it's just too simple to use the OB.

[JeffM]

Jeesh, Scott! A brand-new boat just wetted and already you're hankering after another? You must have the fever bad!

[brian watkins]

If you are in a tidal area where drying out every tide is likely, then bilge keels may be a good idea. They are very popular in Britain for that reason. British Hunter boats (not to be confused with the American company), has made some very well-performing twin keel boats. Pictures of any drying harbour in the U.K. will show some boats sitting on two or sometimes three keels.

[Charlie Jones]

ROFL- Ray- I don't want to relive that in ANY boat!!!

Lordy what a mess, and what a totally exhausting night! 65 is TOO DAMNED OLD to be wading chest deep in mud carrying out anchors, then winching them home, while tow boats slide by 40 feet away. In the dark. At midnight. But then 45 is too old also *grin*

Thanks- I'll skip a rerun :?

Oh- and there WAS no tide- we were in the ICW well inland. Might have had a 2 inch affect.

But seriously it wouldn't have mattered in our case- we weren't so much aground as into the mud. The boat was rocking the whole time- just had two feet of water and 4 feet of goo. Ever hear of "pluff" mud? Of course it would have been one more keel to drag through the goop.

[Scott Dunsworth]

:roll: Isn't that just like a home builder, trying to change the design and it isn't even for sell yet.

I would give the twin keels some serious thought if the draft would be in the 2 1/2 foot range.

actually Jeff I am looking for a long term project down the road. Also a boat to spend a great deal of time on. There are factory built sloops everywhere but cat ketchs are far and few to be had.

Twin keels may make it easyer to trailer home once a year or for some repair. You could use a flat bed trailer. (maybe)

Scott

[PAR]

A 30' LOD boat with maximized LWL and reasonable beam; you could have your cake and eat it too. You can have shoal draft, without a board case intruding into the cabin spaces, I would elect for a small diesel inboard on a cruiser, that may power much more then a dayboat, rather then an outboard. Cruising usually requires a lot more powering then most sailors like to admit. An outboard enclosed in a well can serve okay, but isn't working in the best performance envelope, driving a cruising boat. It therefore gets pitiful fuel consumsion for the output. An inboard can be sized, geared and propped to the desired performance expectations and can be more economical as a result. Inboards can also drive other things, like water makers, generators, hydraulic devices (like winches, windlasses, etc.), pumps, air conditioning and heating to name a few. Sure an outboard can drive an 120 VAC inverter, but the poor little stator that most small to midsize outboards have will be BBQ'd pretty quick with much use. Some of the bigger outboards have a real alternator, but these are usually much bigger engines then a 30'er will need.

Bilge keels are a good thing for the cruising sailor and like everything else in yacht design have their trade offs. The Bahamas are shallow, very shallow, so you'll want minimum draft. Fixed keel(s) are more prone to damage in shoal areas, then centerboard boats. It's one of the hundreds of decisions you'll need to make in the coming months, as you refine your retirement cruiser needs.

Shallow draft and standing headroom cause problems for the designer in small boats, but you'll be able to have some on a shoal 30' yacht. You don't need to stand up when in a berth. I design small boats without standing headroom in the head. I do this for safety reasons and to keep things neat. I don't care how good or practiced you are, no one has good aim at sea, sit down. A tight (narrow) head, that forces the user to sit, is a safe place, if the boat lunges while you're taking care of business. Other considerations like this will creep into your head as time moves forward toward you cruiser's finalized plans. Write them down and prioritize each, so you can get a handle on the literally hundreds of things that will need a clients opinion or fit a particular desire. It will make it much easier for the designer to produce a yacht that fits your dream. Go for it . . .

[JeffM]

Paul, wouldn't a keel like the Bellhaven's be a very nice compromise: real shoal draft, ability to raise the board when you run aground, ability to dry out, some small windward performance in shallows, and a trunk that's practically invisible? How has it been working for you, Scott?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Jeff I didn't build the bilge keel on my Belhaven. So I can not comment on it. I did try to sail a close reach with the board up. and the leeway was not good but it was a lot better than I expected. My keel is 1 inch deeper than the plans and the board when fully up is 4 inchs below the hull for the length of the board.

Scott

[Garry]

Three big PITAs with cruising sailboats:

1. Location - Getting from here to there. At five knots or even 15 knots is a long, boring, exhausting, and sometimes dangerous proposition. The first time or two it is an worthwhile experience. But when you are hunkered down in an early winter storm because you waited to the end of hurricane season, you will be wishing you were already there.

2. Storage - Paying for slip fees when you have to be away from the boat. Whether its family time, work, or travel, there are times when you must leave the boat. It will be in the water, susceptible to damage from weather, waves, errant boats, etc. trusting a dock hand to watch over her. Slip fees are getting expensive and hard to find.

3. Haulouts - Whether they are for maintenance or to store her for long periods, haulouts and boatyards are expensive. Some will no longer allow owners to do their own work. And they are not very secure.

This is why an important feature of my next boat (Princess 28?) will be that it is readily trailerable.

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4544&highlight=p28

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4547&highlight=p28

Summer in the Great Lakes, winter in the Keys - no problem. Load up and we are there in a few days, not weeks or months. How about a few weeks on the Pacific coast with a stop at the Grand Canyon? Let's go!

Storage - load up and park it at home or in a secure storage lot.

Haulouts - I do my own at home!

I give up some headroom, but I can learn to deal with that. Many full-size cruisers don't have the 6'3" headroom I need. Just make sure the cockpit bimini has enough headroom to stand.

Yes, I am selling a 36' bluewater cruising boat (www.pbase.com/sailrosita/rosita) that could take us anywhere. But I'm also getting rid of a $300-600/month marina bill just for storage or a slip. And the inflexibility of being locked to a limited cruising area unless I have the time and money to make an expedition.

[PAR]

Jeff, unless I'm trying to design for minimum draft, I always use a stub keel to house the majority of the centerboard. In the shallows, with the board up, you still have some appendage exposed for tracking and windward work. It can dramatically lessen the impact the case has on the interior of a boat. In fact, I'm sure you could have it completely under the sole in a well thought out 30'er. So yes, I'm a big fan of the concept. I just did a 24' boat with this feature and it is all under the sole, but for a small tower, the lanyard winch is mount to.

Standing headroom isn't as necessary as you might think. At the galley and the companionway, it's handy, but very few other places below decks require full standing headroom. Your seated on settees, the nav station, the head (intentionally in my designs) and prone when in a berth if not seated. A 30' shoal draft boat can have standing headroom in the areas you really need it without looking boxy, if much effort is placed on hiding the height of the coach roof, using several tricks available to designers of small craft.

30 LOD and 8' 6" of beam with minimal overhangs, maximizing the LWL and interior volume is a lot of boat, but can be trailered. It's not a boat you'll want to drag around a lot, but can make the difference between slip fees nixing the deal and going for it.

As Garry has pointed out, the expenses on a 30' yacht can leap substantially from the usual lot of trailer craft discussed here. Just painting the bottom will need three gallons of costly anti fouling paint, for good coverage. Everything about the boat will be more expensive, rigging, sails, construction materials, equipment, construction effort, ownership costs, literally everything. A well thought out design can help with a number of these issues, so select your design carefully. Selecting the design is generally about have the time of the build, if you're interested in the best fitting yacht for your needs.

Find a designer and open discussions with them about what you need. A stock design may be just fine. A modified or custom design may be another route too. Go for it, you only live once.

[Dale Niemann]

I second Gary's comments.

In Clearwater, FL, even if you live in the city they have a 3-5 year waiting list to get a slip. Then the cost per foot is an ungodly amount per month. All the old marinas are being sold for condos so you can not find a place to haul out even if you could afford it.

However, my nephew has a 31 foot Farrior tri that he trailers all over the US. He lives in CA, has trailered to Great Lakes, FL and PA and many places in between. Interior space is limited but boy does he fly. His son sailed it to Bahamas and cruised the area for 7 months. Sometimes he stores it for several months at zero cost at home or friends homes.

So I vote for a trailerable boat.

[Garry]

Just to clarify my use of "readily trailerable." From my limited reserach, it seems that 8'-6" is the maximum width allowed for interstate highways and MOST states go along with that width. Some still have 8' restrictions off the interstate.

The P28 that Graham is designing for me has 8'-6" beam for this reason. I want to be able to trailer the boat rather easily. I will be living in central Florida for the next few years so there are some great cruising grounds within trailerable distances. For a shallow draft, sharpie type design the max. headroom would be 5'-9". This is important since Victoria will be working at the galley more than me (6'-3").

If you really expect to move the boat only once or twice a year, the beam could go wider to 9' or even more. Some say you could get away without permits. I have also heard that there are agencies that will pull the necessary permits for you, for a fee of course. So a 30/32 footer with 9' or 9'-6" beam would be possible. You could get 6' headroom with that.

I also considered twin keels but decided against them. The sharpie hulls are fast and the additional drag would have more affect on the top speed than it might on a typical deep-draft cruising hull. (I also decided against an inboard for the same reason.) Twin keels are designed for a boat that is left at a mooring in a tidal range where it will dry out and still sit upright. For a cruising boat to sit on the bottom as the tide goes out sounds appealing but probably not practical since the bottoms will be unknown and the tide timetable may not agree with the cruisers timetable. Sitting on the bottom is not where you want to be when its time to catch a breeze. Besides, the tidal range in the Bahamas and Keys is not too large.

[lsearle]

Scott, go to:

www.cmdboats.com/trailersailer32.htm?cart id-847914045d2cadede68dda17bdf291c

[Scott Dunsworth]

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas.

I think I'll put this on the back burner for a few years and see what Graham comes up with.

BUUUT!

Has anyone noticed that there is almost NO plans out there for a true motor sailer? (Thread cross over)

Is it because most sailors hate to motor or is it because no one can mate the two design needs of both together in a boat that will do well at each task?

It seems like I keep reading that most sailors end up motoring much more than they admit. Not me mind you :wink: I have had JenJor out 7 times and I just filled my huge 3 gallon tank for the second time.

In fact last time out I didn't want to use the motor to loadup. I was wishing I was gutsy enough to sail right up on the trailer. :wink:

[capt jake]

Whatya mean, no plans for a 30' motor sailer? Here is one, I ma sure Sam can complete a set of plans for teh 30' Oysta also.

http://www.devlinboat.com/dcoysta28.htm

[Scott Dunsworth]

Thanks Capt. Jake but she doesnt please my eye. You know shes not a cat ketch :wink:

Scott