What's 17 feet long, blue, and textured like an alligator?

[Ken_Potts]

My Boat - AARGH!

I started painting the lower half of the cockpit of CS17 #121 last night. I'm using exterior oil-based paint (Olympic). The epoxy coating on the wood was sanded and last night before painting I washed it with soap and water, rinsed, and dried.

The first coat looked good so I began on the second coat tonight. I put the second coat directly over the first coat with no prep. The first coat was not fully cured - It was dry to the touch but still soft. I got a good amount of paint on (the port side of the bottom and the keel batten) before I noticed that the paint was wrinkling. I looked back over the instructions on the can and saw the warning not to paint when dew was a possibility. The temperature was between 65 and 70F and falling. Since it was nice and cool out I hadn't really noticed that it was quite humid.

Tomorrow I guess I'll start scraping.

So is the humidity likely my problem?

I got so used to coating okume with epoxy while the temp was falling to avoid those tiny bubbles that I didn't even think about the temp change while painting. I guess I've got the rest of the week to scrape the bad stuff off and I'll paint again Saturday morning while the temperature is rising (unless it's raining).

I posted this mishap partly because I'm not sure that humidity was the cause of the wrinkles and partly as a cautionary tale...

I don't have a photo yet because it's dark out and I don't think the problem would show up in a flash photo. Maybe I'll try to get one tomorrow.

[Guest]

Sorry to hear about your saga. Start off with a bunch of old rags, cotton ones with no colors like red and dark blues and mineral spirits, the sooner the better. Use some plastice gloves like playtex ones that your wife may have for the kitchen.

A scraper will sometimes leave marks in the epoxy.

[capt jake]

I think it is probably the humidity that is causing your pain. It will slow the dry time as well, which doesn't help when you go to aply the second coat. Additionally, the humidity won't allow the coat to properly bond to the substrate.

[Ken_Potts]

Actually, now that I've looked at it again it almost looks like some sort of space-age non-skid... Too bad I only painted one side - If I try to match the finish tomorrow on the other side I'll probably end up with a slick smooth finish on that side.

I don't have any mineral spirits on hand but I'll pick some up tomorrow.

Scraper marks in the epoxy would hide my bad fairing I could point at the bumpy finish and say "Yep, that first coat was like a mirror - You shoulda seen it - Yep. Too bad about the paint."

I would actually consider leaving the wrinkles if I weren't worried that the paint would peel off in sheets while I was tryin ta mix a martini while running downwind...

I'm not sure if I can find a low-humidity day that is above 50F here in NC. It looks like we'll have rain on Saturday so maybe I'll take the morning off on Thursday or Friday and get it painted while the temperature is increasing (but after the dew has burned off).

Hey Oyster - I was almost in your neighborhood Sunday. I went and picked up my sails from Graham. While I was there he gave me my first in-person look at a CS17. That got me all fired up to get the paint on. :roll: I would have gotten in touch but I wasn't sure I was going down there until almost the last minute.

[Frank Hagan]

Could it be recoating before the first coat dried completely? The reason I ask is that I have had alligatoring or orange peeling when I applied a second coat too soon. I guess the bottom coat isn't fully dry, and the top coat solvent softens it more, causing it to pucker.

The can should tell you when you can recoat. Some paints allow you to recoat quickly, but others require a 24 hour delay between coats.

[lsearle]

Yup Frank, you got it in one. A very common problem in enamels of any kind. I generally find it Saturday morning because I was in a hurry to get the cheque from the nice man on Friday.

There are two kinds of "dry", dry and through dry. The only good thing about the problem is the top layer will come off easily and the bottom layer will probably still be wet.

I recently painted a "heritage" bank building and discovered some paint layers that were still sticky to the touch after 150 years.

Lots of solvent and rags will get you back to square one.

Lawrie Searle

[Ken_Potts]

I think I agree with you Frank and Lawrie. It seemed like the paint sort of skinned-over quickly. That seems like it would happen if the solvent was being pulled out through the bottom of the coat.

I guess I had epoxy on the brain - I actually made an effort to get the second coat on before the first had cured completely with the intention of getting a good bond between layers. Oops - Wrong type of goo! Normally I'm the type to read the instructions...

[Guest]

I was tied up over the weekend, son's school function sat, and out of towm Sunday in Virginia. So you didn;t miss out on what I am going to enjoy this afternoon. 8)

[Howard]

If you washed the area with soap and water right before you put the paint down, that might be an issue. There is "dry" and then there is dry. Just because it looks like it's dry (lack of visible moisture) doesn't mean there might not be some moisture still lurking in the cracks. The old "oil and water doesn't mix" thing.

And while we are on the subject, why use an oil based paint? As per the System 3 Epoxy book, oil based paints (which also includes alkyds) are not compatible with epoxy. Drys on the surface of the paint, but not underneath. They (and Graham) suggest using LPU.

For interiors and the insides of bins, hatches, etc. I'd consider a two part epoxy. With LPU on the topsides and exterior decks....areas exposed to sunlight..

The two part epoxy paints appear to solve the problem of what to paint on the bottom. ALL of the LPU's, topside paints and varnishes say they are not for use below the waterline. What then is? Turns out it's epoxy paints. They, in conjunction with polyester fabrics, are used to build interior tanks from plywood. The only downside to to them that I've heard is they can turn chalky over time if exposed to sunlight. That is not the case with interiors or the bottom below the waterline.

[Ken_Potts]

Hi Howard,

I washed with soap and water before the first coat (I think I remember reading that I should do that on the West System website). The first coat came out pretty. I did nothing to prep the surface of the first coat to receive the second coat.

I chose oil based paint mostly out of frustration - When I talked to somebody at West System (a couple of years ago) he said that pretty much anything would stick to epoxy except for one-part epoxy paint. When I read up on it though, the surface preparation (I'm going from memory now) for almost everything contained a warning that results vary and whatever you use may either not stick or not cure because of the whole amine thing.

I decided to test out some cheap paint because I didn't want to use the expensive and hard-to-find stuff only to have it fail (might as well go cheap). The test went well. Upon reflection, though I think in the test area the second coat was applied after the first coat was fully cured.

I decided not to use a two-part epoxy paint because I'm using the paint to protect my two-part epoxy coating from the sun (it seems self-defeating to me). Since it is a trailer boat and it is epoxy encapsulated I'm not too worried about using a paint that is approved for below the waterline.

These decisions apply only to my boat - I'm not advocating a particular method or material. Obviously I'm in no position right now to do that :wink:

Oyster - Quit it! It's not fair to tell me what I'm missing on a day like this! Enjoy the 80ish degree weather.

[Guest]

There is no reason to make excuses about buying paint that does not cost 80 bucks a mixed quart or een 30 dollars a quart for the label. Sorry, to be so blunt. :wink: Each project should get what the person is comfortable with, both in dollars and in working experiences too, so to make that transition from sawdust in the gargage to wet bottoms on the water. So try again after you get this back to a working surface, and gog foward from there. I will say one thing here. The very best paint without a good primer, is not much better than the cheapest paint on an unprimed surface.

[Ken_Potts]

Hey Oyster - Aren't you supposed to be sailing?

I wasn't reallly making excuses as much as explaining my decision making process because I think all coatings/materials have a place somewhere. I've even threatened to build a paper canoe in the past...

[Guest]

Oh I just wanted you to not feel so lonely here. [insert wink as I make no excuses for using good quality paints, quality means sometimes getting the very best that my wallet can buy that actually still works]. I must wait for a bit of wind and my first mate, as high noon seems to be the magic time today.

[Frank Hagan]

Oil based paint can work with epoxy, but you should test it first on a small section (let it cure, make a series of cross hatches in it about 1/8" apart with a razor blade, then burnish cellophane tape over it and rip off the tape ... if the paint comes off you may have an adhesion problem).

The cleaning ritual of scrubbing down the epoxy is to help remove any amine blush that forms on the surface as the epoxy is curing ... its a waxy build up that will interfere with any top coat. So you were on track doing that. (I found that RAKA epoxy really didn't have much of a amine blush, but went through the process anyway).

There are quite a few builders using oil based Rustoleum paint on boats now ... even Practical Sailor is using some in their on-going long-term paint test. So far it has held up well against the $40 per quart paints.

I used latex porch and floor paint, and it works OK, but is really soft. It scars easily. If I had it to do over again, I'd use a "hard shell" oil based paint, but test it for adhesion problems.

[capt jake]

I always 'wash' the surface with either laquer thinner or the 'prep' wash for wiping cars down prior to painting. I have used several differnt paints on epoxy and haven't had a problem with any )yrt). The latest was painted with Ben Moore Urethane alyd enamel (oil base). I sprayed it and it looks fantastic.

[Ken_Potts]

I checked the paint when I got home from work today. I scratched a hidden area with my fingernail and got right down to the epoxy. Then I scratched a spot that had only the first coat of paint - Same result. When I did my test area I had to wait several days for it to feel like it was really going to cure but eventually it did cure.

I'm going to opt for laziness and push on with other tasks in the hopes that it'll cure fully - I know there's a risk that I'm just putting things off until later when it'll be harder to fix but why should my boat be any different from the rest of my life. :twisted:

Thanks to everybody for helping me with the paint mystery - I'll let you know how things turn out...

Didja have a good sail, Oyster?

[Tom Williams]

I had a heck of a time with my paints. I tried a single part polyurethane and an oil based enamal and found the paints wouldn't harden over the epoxy (Systems Three in my case). They didn't wrinkle as you described, they would just stay sticky for days. I finally broke down and bought Systems Three water based two part polyurethane paint. Finally success! By the way, I highly recommend this paint. It's easy to use and is really hard after it cures.

Bottom line --- use the epoxy supplier's recommended primer or paint and as Frank stated, experiment on a small section of your boat.

Good Luck!

Tom

[Guest]

Thanks for asking, Ken. I suffered through some mighty lite winds and cold soda pops, with boat on a two hour run to have my forhead glowing tonight. I don't know why I torture myself like I do, sometimes. :cry:

And how was your afternoon?

[Ken_Potts]

Tom,

I agree wholeheartedly that it's best to use the manufacturer's recommended finish. My problem has been that I've been unable to determine what the manufacturer (West Systems) recommends - I've been unable to find any recommendation of a brand that works well. I've looked over the website, checked the printed materials that I've come across, and called the company. The only answer I was able to get was to use anything BUT one-part epoxy (that was from the phone call).

Now I want to be careful here - I'm not saying that there is NO recommended coating, I'm saying I didn't find it (I've been know to overlook the obvious before). I fully expect after posting this message to have a reply like "Man, it's right there on the resin can - Can't you read?" 'Course then I'll know what the recommended coating is and all this will have been more than worth the trouble...

What am I saying!?! It's more than worth the trouble anyway!

So the next boat is System Three and the Two-Part Poly... Or my paper canoe... Either one.

And just in case the tone didn't come through the keyboard - I've been smiling the whole time I've been typing.

[Guest]

I have tried and used so many brands and blends since West System has come on the scene, back many moons ago, and have used more than my share of paints, including just about every enamel that can be purchased at any big name places. After proper washing and prepwork, I still to this day use Kilz primer on the epoxy and have yet to have a failure of it with flaking of it. This creates a wonderfull barrier coat for any brand that I have ever used, IMHO. Once it grabs, you can recoat, bugger it up, slopping it on with a mop, let it cure hard for several day and block it out, and the enamel will stick and stay to it. As far as the actual paint, now, time for recoats so apply, though, so buyer beware.

p.sp. a gallon cost anywhere from 9 to 11 bucks and don't worry about "for interior only" on the face of the can.