How much room in Princess 22

[Frank Hagan]

I have a Potter 19 that has a similar galley set up ... molded in sink and single burner portable stove (which I assume goes on that little spot next to the sink like it does in mine). The sink makes a good cubby, but not much else. I don't think we've ever used it. We did use the single burner stove to heat up water for tea.

I would cut the thing out like some have done ... it really makes the inside look so much bigger ... but then its a major mod that could ruin the resale value of the boat. I may still do it, but I think most uninitiated people will look at the missing galley as a strike against the boat should I ever decide to sell.

[John Turpin]

Frank. I had the same thought with my P-19. I think a big, space-robbing galley helps to sell new boats, but then are rarely used afterward. Space is precious in a small cabin. New boat manufacturers probably understand this, but know that they'd lose sales if they took out that "cute little kitchen".

This is one of the benefits of building your own. You can maximize your useful space, yet provide that little sea stove that you WILL use to boil water. Dandy.

[Charlie Jones]

Oh yeah we use the galley area. Even underway. Here's a shot of the stove in use while we were hard on the wind in Galveston Bay. Laura has even cooked pancakes and bacon while we were rolling downwind across Mississippi Sound.

The stove is a kerosene Primus and the sink behind it is a steam table stainless pan, that is just dropped in. No drain. To drain it, we lift it out and dump it. We get water to the sink using a foot pump.

Remember- the stove is actually straight up - the BOAT is really heeled

[Howard]

The boat is a Montgomery 17. I've never tried to cook underway, as I normally am singlehanding, and I prefer to do all cooking and cleanup before I go anywhere. The guy who had the boat before me had attempted to sail it from SF Bay to Hawaii. He got 3 days out before he chickened out...which was a wise choice. Boat might have made it but he and boat were not ready for that kind of trip. Anyway, for tha ttrip, he built a gimballed stove like the one Charlie shows, but it left the burner way too close to the cabin curtains for my taste....so I removed that in favor of the Origo (which btw does heat and boil water well...contrary to claims that alcohol is a bad fuel). But again, I do more than boil water, so I'd like a nice galley on my boat. About half as big as the one shown would be minimal to be functional. Big enough for a two burner stove and a modest sized sink. I've seen lots of built in ice boxes, but most are of no use at all. Unless built right, I'd rather have a cooler.

I fear I have strayed from the original thread.

[wkisting]

I tend to agree with the sentiment that small galleys are used to sell boats, but a little bit of experimentation with their limitations/quirks/capabilities can turn them into a very useful, enjoyable feature of the cabin. I think a lot of people don't use the small stoves in small sailboat cabins because they're (1) not comfortable cooking in a confined space or (2) not accustomed to cooking on a single burner. Once you get past these two issues, you'll find yourself using your stove a lot, even just on a long day trip.

As a kayaker/backpacker, I slowly acquired a whole collection of single-burner meal recipes that had me eating healthier and happier than the usual dry-food-in-a-bag or dehydrated meals that a lot of stove-shy campers depend on (you know, the ones with the constantly rumbling tummies who are always complaining they don't feel "satisfied" by their meals.) :wink: Simple, single-pan recipes all transfer nicely, of course, to the single burner galley on most small sailboats, so I use my stove fairly often.

For me, the more intimidating issue was the cooking in confined spaces... wooden boats and flames don't mix well, nor does scalding water and a pitching-and-heeling boat. I think the ideal galley is laid out like Howard's, with a nice stable surface for a small single-burner stove, but with the option of taking that stove out to the cockpit or ashore while cooking. This is the option I settled on for the Pocket Cruiser I built, and it really gives me a lot of peace-of-mind being able to cook OUTSIDE the cabin when the water is anything but glass-calm, and when the stove and/or contents of the pot might spill or launch itself across the boat. This seems like an ideal option for the P22, since the interior is adequately large to justify a small galley station, but you could always move out into the cockpit to cook in rough conditions, where the self-bailing cockpit sole would take care of any spills if your pot did tip.

[Charlie Jones]

I suppose I should point out that our SeaCook gimbaled stove has both a pot lock in it which grabs the pot at the bottom to hold it in place, and it is also easily removable so it can be used in the cockpit as easily as in the cabin. In fact in the picture you can see two of the three rubber tipped feet it sits on. That sink is also removable so we can use THAT out in the cockpit too. Or both items can be put in a dinghy and taken ashore when we want to cook on the beach, which we sometimes do. I could quite easily install a hanger out in the cockpit so it could be gimballed out there too. The brackets cost about 10 bucks and the hanger just drops into place.

One thing you can easily do to be safer when cooking underway is to use a pressure cooker, without the seal or weight. Their lids lock in place so if the pot DOES happen to get chucked across the cabin it won't spill very much if anything. We have several aboard in various sizes. Laura even bakes bread and cakes in the pressure cooker, using it as an oven.

Here's a shot of that same stove before I mounted it into the SeaCook part, being used in the cockpit with a pressure cooker, to bake a cake. Laura had just pulled the cake out of the cooker- It was delicious

This picture was taken towards the end of a ten day cruise aboard our previous 21 footer.

[wkisting]

Okay, so since this thread is about the P22 interior, I thought I would post an optional interior layout I've been playing with for the P22 that I will (someday) build. I thought it might make an interesting topic for discussion if anyone would like to offer suggestions/modifications, or perhaps borrow some of my ideas for their own interior layouts.

Here's a description of the cabin layout and the logic behind it:

First, note that this layout is intended to maximize convenience, versatility, and comfort for one to two people. It's not meant to comfortably house more than two, as my wife and I will be the only ones ever "overnighting" on the boat. All others will be put ashore to fend for themselves at night.

1) Nav Station - located to port of the cabin entrance, there is a generously sized (approx. 2' x 2') chart table with surrounding shelves for GPS/chartplotter, depth finder, compass, etc. Can also be used as a reading table or a place to have dinner in calm waters.

2) Head - located to starboard of cabin entrance, the padded berth top lifts up to reveal the toilet (either standard porta-pottie, or a flushing toilet plumbed through cabin bulkhead to a waste holding tank in the cockpit). The head location (just under the overhead cabin hatch) allows for users to stand up to pull up their pants or, for men, to pee standing up, as long as the main hatch is open. I thought this would be convenient, since the hatch would also provide a convenient spot to brace yourself in choppy seas if you really had to pee and couldn't wait for conditions to calm. The other benefit is that it's close to the cockpit, so if you're single-handing (the boat) you can keep an eye on your course and get back to the tiller in a hurry if need be.

3) Battery - located under the companionway step at the cabin entrance, the battery is in a central location where its weight may give a slight advantage in ballasting effect, but more importantly, can be run on a short wire run to the master fuse/control panel (located at the Nav station) for all 12V equipment.

4) Galley - located just forward of the head, on the starboard side, it has a small/removable sink that is just large enough to hold a hot pot or to scrub dishes. Faucet is a small hand-pump or electric pump type. The sink could be gravity-drained to the toilet or just lifted out and dumped to expel gray water. A 4-gallon tank of freshwater could be stored under the sink, along with a small trash bin with access through the front of the cabinet for trash disposal. The stove shown is my flat, single-burner butane stove that can be taken out to the cockpit or used next to the sink as shown. After reading Charlie's post, I might consider replacing it with a gimballed stove like Charlie uses, making it safer to use in mildly choppy conditions or when heeled over, and also installing a second gimbal mount in the cockpit so the stove could be moved back and forth between the two locations. The whole galley counter is angled aft to make it more convenient to access quickly from the cockpit, and so you can reach the stove while sitting on the padded lid to the head (i.e., sit while you cook) or while standing up through the main hatch (i.e., stand while you cook). It also opens up the space a bit.

5) Icebox - located just forward of the Nav station, on the port side, the icebox is built into the berth, accessed through the top of the berth like a chest-style cooler. Probably I would use 4" polyurethane foam insulation all around the box, giving a good R-value of 22 for efficiency and MAYBE fit it with a small condenser (though probably just use ice instead). The padded lid over the ice box not only extends the port berth, but serves as the seat for the Nav station.

6) Drop-in Berth panels - the darker green rectangles between the port and starboard berths are "berth expanders" which convert the two separate berths into one large double berth. The panels could be stored forward, near the front bulkhead, where Graham's original P22 plans show the portapottie. One side of the panels is padded to expand the berth, but the panels could also be flipped over to expose a hardwood backside which would make a nice table-like "activity surface" for laying out drinks, cards, board games, etc. while my wife and I lay to either side on the padded individual berths. A nice feature if we end up killing a rainy afternoon inside the cabin. (I might even consider making one of the back surfaces out of alternating 1.5" squares of wood to create an eye-catching, built-in woodgrain checkerboard for playing checkers.)

This is my best layout plan so far, but probably could be much improved. I've tried to design a layout that will also provide significant structural support to the hull and keep structural weight fairly balanced across the beam. Let me know what you think or what you might recommend from your own experience.

[Howard]

Looks like a reasonable variation...as long as it doesn't alter anything structural. I'm sure Graham will shoot you down pretty fast if that happens.

Two issues come to mind. First...V-berths are a handy place to stick a double bed (and all the benefits that might bring), but it's not the best place to sleep on a boat. The most valuable real estate on a boat is the centerline...fore and aft...and amidships. The boat rotates around those two planes....and gives you the least amount of movement there. Great place to sleep and great place to cook. Also, on boats that really heel over, an athwartships facing toilet is almost impossible to get off of. Don't know what the typical heel angle of a Princess is, but it's probably less than 10 degrees, so this may not be an issue for a Princess. Taking this into account, the original design is pretty good. Depends on how far you want to go with the galley and the nav station/table.

As for the idea of setting it up for a couple, I think that's a very good idea. Realistically, boats of this size should not have more than a couple...or perhaps a couple with small....really small...children, spending much time on a boat. I'm talking overnights and/or extended trips. First you have all that gear. Second...things happen at night.... folks snore....smell....etc. and things are just not compatible for more than a couple who are used to sleeping together...be it husbands/wives ....brothers....sisters....or just a sailing buddy. Three or four guys might survive it better than a couple with teenage children. There is no privacy on a boat of this size. I was once stuck on a 32 footer once with 9 other kids/adults for a week. It was nearly death by violence!

And again...I'm talking extended trips. For a day sail, bring em on. You can survive just about anything for one day. The boat may flounder, but you can still have fun.

[wkisting]

Thanks Howard... didn't think about the toilet/heeling issue, but we probably wouldn't use it much while under sail. I was more concerned with the issue of choppy waves when the boat is at rest, in which case I thought it would be nice to have the toilet under the main hatch, where you can stand up and brace yourself as you pull your pants up or whatever... and to keep it close to the cockpit as mentioned in the previous post.

I'd like to move the berths back, but I wanted to keep the sink/stove area closer to the main hatch also for better ventilation of the cabin (i.e. heat) when cooking in warm weather. I'm thinking it will help keep the cabin cooler if the heat can work its way up out the main hatch. Or maybe we would just take the stove outside in that case.

I'm not sure there needs to be a galley at all, as I've never really felt a need for a sink (a plastic washtub works fine, and can be stowed anywhere) and the stove could be mounted anywhere (even on the side of a berth). If I take out the galley, I could extend the berths back closer to center as you mentioned, but my wife is a late sleeper and I am an early riser, so I was trying to design an interior that one person could use while another person is still sleeping... that pretty much necessitates keeping the sleeping space forward (as located above) so that I don't have to crawl over her or around her to get in and out of the cabin. Or perhaps I could build the padded berths on a drawer slide so that when the morning comes, I can just roll her away into a stowage compartment while she snoozes. Just kidding of course.

[wkisting]

Ray, I think 99.9% of our sleeping will be at anchor. I can't imagine ever sleeping while underway because that would mean the helm is either unmanned or manned by my wife... not sure which thought terrifies me more, but either way I wouldn't be able to fall asleep. I tried to make the individual berths wide enough that Anna could still nap while we're underway though, in which case she can just curl up on the leeward berth if the boat is heeled.

Here's a slightly redesigned layout, which carries the under-deck shelving further forward (to better reinforce the deck and to provide a backrest for the seats, which I forgot about in the previous layout.)

The galley has shrunk to include a sink only, which could be covered by a hard cover to convert into a (very) small table with seating to either side. The stove has been changed to a gimbal-mount single-burner, mounted on the corner of the Nav Station table, effectively centering the burner over the center of the boat (fore and aft, side to side) where the boat motion should be least violent as Howard mentioned above (i.e., calmer cooking with the help of the gimbal to tame whatever motion does get transferred to the pot). The stove will be removed and stowed under a berth when not in use.

With the smaller sink area, I was able to expand the head/toilet area to make it a little more comfortable and spacious, and to accommodate a small wastebasket for depositing toilet paper or trash (only fluids, no solids, will be allowed in the head... we'll go ashore for taking care of #2).

I moved the battery off the centerline to the port side, under the Nav station to offset the weight of the water tank which is stored under the sink. I think this should help balance the boat a little better than the previous layout.

I tapered the seats inward a bit (as they move forward) to match the inward taper of the cabin roof overhead. This way the front of the seats will be parallel to the backrests/cabin sides, a detail I neglected in the previous layout. This means the drop-in berth filler panels (shown in brown) have to be angled instead of square, but it shouldn't complicate matters too much.

I added blue (me) and pink (Anna) "dummies" to show the approximate arrangement for sleeping... looks like just enough room to be comfortable, and we could sleep tilted away from each other a bit (along the side berths) when the weather is too warm to sleep shoulder to shoulder.

[Charlie Jones]

two things- why not take a close look at the redesign of the Princess cabin that Graham just posted. I think if I were building one for myself I'd go that route. I even told Travis that's how I'd build the boat back when I was building his. SLIGHTLY different than Graham designed but VERY close.

Second- TEACH ANNA TO HANDLE THE BOAT!!!! Teach her how to do it all by herself- steer, tack, reef the sails, all of it. Get her to the point where you CAN comfortably take a nap. You owe it to HER, plus you owe it to yourself. Consider this- what happens if you get disabled by a fall, or a boom clonking you, or worse case, a heart attack? Then who gets you home? AND more over - who gets HER home?

Laura can handle our boat single hand with total competence and has been able to for years- I have absolutely no qualms about going below and going to sleep, either in wide open waters or in the ICW running in company with tugs and tows heading boith directions.

It's more fun for her, it's more fun for you , and it's safer.

DO IT.

[wkisting]

I was half kidding about Anna. Of course I do teach her to handle the boat, but as for sleeping while she's at the helm, hmmm... I don't know. I'm the same way in a car... I simply can't sleep no matter who is driving. I suppose it's one part "I don't fully trust the driver" and one part "I don't want to miss any of the scenery."

Maybe I can try short naps to work past this problem.

[wkisting]

BTW, Charlie, which of Graham's redesigns of the P22 are you referring to? The one that appears back near the start of this thread? If so, what makes you prefer that layout?

I'm not sure I would want to increase the freeboard or lose the ability to tilt the motor up. Certainly wouldn't want to hang the motor on the transom. Also, I don't see a need for the larger cabin, as the original cabin seems adequate for 2. What would be the benefits afforded by this redesign in your opinion? (i.e. why would you build it that way, and why did you recommend it to Travis?)

Thanks!

[Charlie Jones]

I wouldn't have changed the motor setup- I like that totally. All I would have done was to bring the rear of the cabin back against the mizzen with no changes in free board at all. Basically, same boat, longer cabin, smaller cockpit.

I didn't recommend it to Travis, we were just discussing the possibilities of the boat one time and I commented that that's what I would do. But then I use boats differently than many. We tend to go out and stay out for a while, instead of daysailing. In fact, we don't really enjoy a daysail all that often. We usually are gone at least 3 days when we take our boat out. So we'd enjoy the extra cabin space

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

It is hard to re-design the interior. The designs presented seem to compromise the longitudinals a lot...especially in the area of the centerboard. I would want to get Graham's blessings on that.

I have tried to get a nav. station and dinette into the princess 26 plans without success.

On the motor...the modification that Graham shows is like the 26. Takes a longer motor and the tilt conflicts with the shortened cockpit. Thats why it raises and lowers and not tilting.

[wkisting]

Charlie... sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying... yes, it has occurred to me, too, that I might extend the cabin back to the mizzen. I thought you were recommending the mods to the motor well and freeboard also, which would be opening quite a can of worms for little benefit and a few potential inconveniences (like the tighter motor arrangement).

I'm having trouble deciding if I actually need more space in the cabin because I'm accustomed to a little 14' pocket cruiser (that's bow to stern, mind you) and the P22 should fell Oh-so-spacious to compare. In fact, my biggest complaint about our Pocket Cruiser is not that the cabin is too small (actually, it's quite cozy the way I have laid it out) but that the cockpit is too cramped. I would LOVE to have the 9' seats of the P22's cockpit. ::drool::

Joe, I'm not sure if I've drawn it very well, but hidden under the Nav table is some framing that fairly accurately preserves the structure of the original layout in that area (beside the centerboard) which in Graham's plans has a bookshelf/storage area. On the other side, the framing around the head would preserve the structure formerly provided (in Graham's plans) by the starboard berth. So going purely by guesstimate, I THINK my layout stays fairly faithful to Graham's structural design, but of course it's hard to tell as I can't visualize it very well on 2D paper. But yes, I had the same concerns about the longitudinals you mentioned. I'll be curious to see if Graham has an opinion. (Side note to Graham: Feel free just to say: "Stop $@#@ing with my plans!" )

P.S. Today I started toying with building a custom gimbal mount for a single-burner stove. I just can't imagine shelling out $100+ for a "Sea Cook" or the like, when it's pretty much a $20 propane burner with a fancy mount. I also built another pop-can alcohol stove which I'll post about on the One Burner Cookery thread. Anyone ever built their own gimbal mount?

[Travis Votaw]

Here are some pictures as promised.

[Travis Votaw]

As finished, the cabin is 10 feet long from the anchor locker bulkhead to the after cabin bulkhead. The berths are 6'10" long along their centerline.

The cabin is 66" wide between cabin sides at the after end of cabin.

Headroom is 51" at the bottom of the companionway, not counting the extra height under the companionway slide.

Six adults can sit facing each other on the berths with plenty of room. I'm thinking of getting up a game of 88 (dominoes)

TV

[wkisting]

Thanks Travis, great pics!

What kind/model of portapottie is that you're using?

[Charlie Jones]

Thetford 555. Same one I bought for Tehani after seeing the one we put in for Travis.

4.5 gallon holding tank, balances well when carrying full. In fact, balances better than the smaller one we used aboard the last boat.