Weekender Complaints

[Jacob]

OK, so i've heard all of the good things about the weekender, but I would like to hear the problems you all have had with the Weekender. I would also like to hear any suggestions you all have on the Weekender ,plus I would like any tips, hints,or suggestions you all have. I hope I am not asking too much thanks

[Frank Hagan]

I wouldn't categorize this as a complaint, but really more like one of those inevitable compromises that you have when you decide on any boat. Some small boats don't have this compromise, but have plenty of others:

Trim / Lack of Ballast: The Weekender is designed as a light, sailing dinghy, without ballast. That makes it very responsive to light airs, but also makes it "tippy" if you weigh more than about 180#. At that weight, you also affect the trim of the boat a lot sitting in the cockpit. Adding 125# or so of weight up in the forepeak does a great job of counter-acting this tendency. I could also lose 50 pounds!

The second thing I would say is that the cockpit is small; when I look at the Potter 14', with a similar length of the cockpit, I notice that two people can sit all the way aft and have their feet down on the cockpit sole. Really not possible with the Weekender until you are up near the companion way bulkhead. Widening the stern would help this, but I don't know if that would affect the performance.

[Jacob]

The second thing I would say is that the cockpit is small; when I look at the Potter 14'' date=' with a similar length of the cockpit, I notice that two people can sit all the way aft and have their feet down on the cockpit sole. Really not possible with the Weekender until you are up near the companion way bulkhead. Widening the stern would help this, but I don't know if that would affect the performance.[/quote'] It might increase the tendency of the bow to plunge, it also might cause the transom to drag a little; but other than that I don't know what other difference it would make.

[tdrown]

I notice that two people can sit all the way aft and have their feet down on the cockpit sole. Really not possible with the Weekender until you are up near the companion way bulkhead. Widening the stern would help this, but I don't know if that would affect the performance.

You probably also could slightly slim the deck and make the seats less deep and further out.

I also would be careful with steering, I set it up completely working before you put your sides on or add access ports to the lazarette hatch. I'm trying to complete redo mine this week.

As its a light boat, when you sail pay attention to balence. It's important.

There's a few other things that are more of issues with my choices. Be sure to use a good glue and the easy to maintain wood.

[Frank Hagan]

The second thing I would say is that the cockpit is small; when I look at the Potter 14'' date=' with a similar length of the cockpit, I notice that two people can sit all the way aft and have their feet down on the cockpit sole. Really not possible with the Weekender until you are up near the companion way bulkhead. Widening the stern would help this, but I don't know if that would affect the performance.[/quote'] It might increase the tendency of the bow to plunge, it also might cause the transom to drag a little; but other than that I don't know what other difference it would make.

You would increase boyancy in the stern, but there would be extra wetted area, and it would increase drag a little. The extra boyancy might help with the trim issue.

[Greg Luckett]

OK' date=' so i've heard all of the good things about the weekender, but I would like to hear the problems you all have had with the Weekender. I would also like to hear any suggestions you all have on the Weekender ,plus I would like any tips, hints,or suggestions you all have. I hope I am not asking too much thanks[/quote']

This is a very good question and I am surprised it has not been asked before (as far as I can recall anyway). Since I plan to build a Vacationer, now I would like the same sort of questions answered...what are the negatives?

Thanks.

[Tim Diebert]

Every time Jacob posts....I think it is Frank. The Avatar twins.

I could make a few additions here Jacob....as I am sure many here might have suspected :wink:

I would respond to this topic from a entirely different angle than most, if not all, of the fine folks on this forum. I did not choose the Weekender, it chose me.

A friend of mine build his WE one winter, sailed it once, scared the bejeepers out of himself, then asked me to go out with him....and then I scared the bejeepers out of him (always good fun) on one of our high wind days. In the end, he wanted not to have a sailboat and I wanted not to have a motorcycle. We traded. He found building was way more fun than sailing.

My bike was worth about $2500 Canadian (at the time, about $1560 US) and his boat was very new (two uses) with a brand new trailer (no motor, I already had one).

I live in a pretty remote area in the mountains of southern interior BC...not a lot of sailboats here. When you see them, they are rarely for sale. Yes, I could easily have build any kind of boat for myself, but it is not likely to happen. Although I make my living as a guitarmaker now, I have been a joiner, boatbuilder and shipwright in the past. Making things full time, for most of my life, from wood does not lend itself to spending even more time in the shop on my days and evenings off...making even more things out of wood. I have a whole list of other things I prefer to do on my time off.

I have sailed most of my life (on a range of larger boats), though I had not (until the swap) ever owned...or even hoped to own, my own sailboat. As a side hobby to working on boats, I very casually studied naval architecture.

Sorry for covering what seem to be unrelated topics. I am just making it clear from where I come from to form my opinions.

I must say that I enjoy this forum and all the folks on it. I have learned a lot of very interesting and valuable lessons here. The range of experience and expertise is wonderful and it is great to be able to tap into some of this knowledge. The designer (Mike) of this boat reads all the posts, it seems to me, and is very helpful to anyone that needs advice.

My list of opinions is just that, my opinion. The opinion of someone who has no emotional tie in to the Stevensons Projects boats. I did not build this boat by choice as most here have done. I will also add that I won't be debating any of my comments, as it has all been done before. These are only my opinions. You are the first person, to my recollection, that has asked this question out loud. This thread could be of some value to a person that is debating building a WE or some other design. Weighing the pros and cons.

I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings here. Folks tend to, for some reason, take this stuff very personally. I design and build some pretty odd instruments...my work is dissected and criticized all the time. Part of the territory it seems to me.

The design itself: I would categorize this design as a boat meant to be easily constructed my a raw amateur with little previous woodworking or construction skill.

The assembly methods are unorthodox at best, some of which are not even remotely associated with traditional boatbuilding. This, I think, is in some ways a very good thing.

I am not certain on this, but it seems to me that this design was created as a result of a design contest in a 70's or 80's vintage Popular Science magazine issue. I think this design won the contest....though I am fuzzy on this.

I feel that the most attention to this design was for ease of construction and to look 'salty'. Both of which it has achieved. It is also very common for these first time builders to also be first time sailors.

-The thing I like the most about this boat is the way it is so easily and quickly rigged and torn down. Brilliant. I have not seen a traditional boat (that has a stayed mast) do this so well. If I was to build another boat around this size range, I would duplicate the basic idea.

The bad thing is the called for dimensions of both the mast and boom. They are almost double what they actually need to be. I have reduced a lot of weight aloft and just plain old weight period by building all new spars in a more 'petite' dimension. It makes a big difference. I believe the reason (or one of them) that these spars are so massive is because it looks good or is somehow in keeping with the old time salty workboat/ Friendship Sloop idea.

-The stock wheel steering is, at best, a joke. There have been countless folks that has had it break the very first time out in the boat. Including the fellow that built my boat. I am sure his maiden voyage would not have been nearly so frightening if he was able to actually steer the boat. I feel this wheel exists in the plans to this day because it sells the whole salty notion. I have always thought that traditional looking wheel was the very thing that has sold many folks on buying plans with hopes of building the boat. I do believe it does well to create a bit more space in the cockpit.

I know many of the listers have modified their wheel steering to work well without breaking. The info exists somewhere here on the forum.

Having a wheel on such a small boat is pretty silly....but then it is just my opinion. I can't be easy to steer one of these little boats on a broad reach with the wheel. I know in my boat, when you are doing hull speed and then some, surfing down waves on a broad reach, you need some very quick and precise corrective trim adjustments now and again. I have many times thought it would be a real handful if a person had to use wheel steering...but then I am sure many folks have gotten use to this and use it to great effect. It is just not for me.

-This boat can be quite a handful in regards to weather helm. I know my boat was plain old horrible. Far too much pressure on the helm if I chose to carry more canvas than I should. Many folks have no problem with it. I am always shocked at the range of opinion on this topic alone. I know that the weather helm pressure created by this boat was partially responsible for what took out the PO owners steering system.

I have looked at this boat as a whole. Regarding the CLR and the CE, and it is basically wrong. Sorry to say. The 'keel' structure carries way more area forward than aft, which moves the CLR too far forward, which is what causes the weather helm to be excessive, on my boat anyway. It also effects the balance of the boat to some degree. I feel that the designers may have done this to keep the boat safer with more pronounced weather helm, or it may have not even been an issue for them. This oddly shaped keel creates other problems as well.

I have radically altered the shape of the keel and will be doing more of this in a couple of weeks. My boat is almost at the point of (for me) being perfectly balanced. A bit more work and I will have it right where I want it.

-This high area forefoot (as mentioned above) is also the cause of another 'issue'. The inability to be able to carry the head of the boat all the way through a tack. I personally used to keep a paddle on deck to finish a tack in light wind....even medium wind. Many others here have suggested all manner of procedure. Thing is though, it should just come over, every time. The chubby forefoot is light a special fin meant to prevent to head from coming around. Once I removed mine it tacked perfect every time, not problems...ever.

Yet another 'issue' with the forefoot, thought not nearly so important (only to me) is the inherent tippyness when beached. It was a huge nuisance as the boat was on much too extreme of an angle when up on the sand.

This shape of forefoot also makes the boat more difficult than necessary to retrieve from the water onto your trailer. Again, by removing a large bulk of this shape my boat is much more user friendly for beaching and much easier to get on the trailer. These are just minor issues I suppose.

-Again, many people with argue this point with me, but I was very disappointed in the windward ability of the boat. I could actually see the amount of sideslip I was getting in my boat...when I was able to use solid reference points on land. I got to the point where I never bothered to sail to wind as I never seemed to get anywhere. I spent my sailing days off the wind and motoring home...unless I had a 180 degree wind shift (which is very common on my lake).

I added an adjustable (fore and aft) dagger board and case to my boat. It made a huge and wonderful difference. I highly recommend it.

If you think about it, where have you seen a sail boat...of any size without a real keel? As far as I know, the weekender and vacationer are the only ones. Even lee boards. Nothing. Folks say it is the keel and hard chine that does it, cool. If it seems to work for them. Cool. It didn't for me.

My feeling, again, was although the original design did have a centerboard...it was omitted saying they found the boats to work fine without it. Cool. I get that. But what I think is that it was removed partly at least because a centerboard and case were a huge challenge for home hobbyists to build and to make watertight on the highly rockered bottom. It also removed a major amount of room from the interior of the boat.

Personally, I would rather have to boat function better as a sailboat and give up the room.

-Ballast: It is not necessary and comes down to a personal decision. Personally, it so radically changed the feel and nature of the boat that I can't imagine sailing without it. I have 260 lbs of lead in what I feel is the best place for it.

I have removed the transom backbone thingee that the rudder was hung on and have designed and built a more traditional rudder. I have also beefed up the transom. I will be adding some more deadwood to the boat....and eventually I will remove the 'clipper' extension of the 'stem'. Just a simple ascetic choice more or less. Everyone has their deal huh? Just minor points.

In working on the transom these past few weeks, I have seen some things that are really not great. I am not sure what it recommends in the plans, but I can tell you the builder said he went 100% to the plans.....that where there is a compound curved support listing, that it be 'curf bent'. (specifically the deck to transom joint) I would recommend going to the trouble of building something properly. The end result with such a listing is it ends up all cracked and broken and no longer a structural piece. The screws sent in from the outside break it all to pieces. Perhaps it is just the result of this particular persons construction abilities, but I would not rely on a simple glass taped outer joint to hold such things together, the mechanical joint underneath is vital in my humble opinion.

In the end, I must say I have really enjoyed working on my boat. Every change I make just makes me more confident in the boat and helps me to enjoy it more. I have gotten the boat to the point now, that on some points of sail I can go forward and sit on the coach roof and let the boat sail itself.

I sail this boat in high wind conditions that, I am sure, a stock WE owner would not. I know I would not have sailed the original boat in many of the conditions that are now just huge fun.

I have grown to love the overall look of the boat, am now a believer in the gaff rig and would use it again on another boat and feel that the handiness of launch and retrieval are outstanding. Some of my best moments in the last 4 years have been spent on this boat.

There are 100's of people that have enjoyed building these boats....and sailing them.....all totally as originally designed. So there you go. I have just made it a bit of a hobby to try and improve on a very excellent and worthy design....just to suit myself.... just for laughs.

Hopefully, some of this info will benefit someone in some way......and hopefully I have not pissed off too many people.

Have a great Sunday All.

Cheers.

-

[Frank Hagan]

Tim, the weatherhelm issue has always been confusing to me ... my Weekender feels really well balanced, tacks all the way through in very light airs and handles well in gusty conditions. (It does have the poor pointing ability you speak of, compared to my bermudan rig production boat, but as far as tacking and weatherhelm, is the absolute equal of my Potter 19.) I do have a tiller rather than a wheel.

I keep thinking there's something else at work. I struggled with getting the mast angle exactly correct, and I'm using the Stevenson's sails, and I wonder if that makes a difference. I've always thought the large forefoot was balancing the deep aspect rudder, something I saw after I built her in an innovative Bolger design I actually liked (he had a large centerboard up at the vberth area, and a high aspect rudder).

Anyway, a lot of people have complained about tacking and weatherhelm, so I know those issues exist. For any potential builder, I would encourage them to pay close attention to the angle of the mast and the sail dimensions.

[Greg Luckett]

......I've always thought the large forefoot was balancing the deep aspect rudder' date=' something I saw after I built her in an innovative Bolger design I actually liked (he had a large centerboard up at the vberth area, and a high aspect rudder......[/quote']

Frank, this is a little confusing to me. Did you modify your Weekender per the Bolger design method?

Thanks.

[Greg Luckett]

....I added an adjustable (fore and aft) dagger board and case to my boat. It made a huge and wonderful difference. I highly recommend it......-

Tim, I have having trouble visualizing this. Where exactly did you place these dagger board trunks?

I wonder about the changes you have made to the forward part of the keel too. By cutting away on the keel, wouldn't that cause additional side slippage problems?

On a side note: what sort of instrumentation do you make?

Thanks.

[Tim Diebert]

Frank, I am with you on that one. I am sure the differences could not be with even a radical rake difference. Moving the mast a lot (angle-wise) would at best move the CE 6" maybe.

I have always chalked all of these issues up to the differences in humans and their experiences, the interesting 'magic' nature of these boats and most importantly, alien intervention. Oh, and I do use the Stevenson sails as well.

I just go by how my boat is working and make things up as I go along from there.

Tim, I have having trouble visualizing this. Where exactly did you place these dagger board trunks?

Just one dagger board trunk, but made long enough that I have lots of fore and aft movement available. Without actual measured drawing to work from (and not willing to make some), I did not want to take a chance that I would get the right spot first go. Also, I had planned on changing the rig a bit and that would have an effect on the CLR.

I wonder about the changes you have made to the forward part of the keel too. By cutting away on the keel, wouldn't that cause additional side slippage problems?

This can be seen on the webpage link below. Yes, it would cause additional slippage if I had not replaced the removed area with a much larger and more effective daggerboard foil elsewhere. The keel aspect of a sailboat is most functional for points of sail from a beam reach on up. Down hill from a beamer you can have very little keel and be just dandy....it is actually prefered by many. (less drag)

On a side note: what sort of instrumentation do you make?

My work is here:

http://www.timtone.com

Greg. My mods (up until last season) are shown here:

http://www.timtone.com/tt/ttphotos/PhotosSailing2.htm

[Tim Diebert]

Oh, and yes.....I have also been considering doing a radical alteration to the the hull to create more beam aft.

Ray and I have discussed this at times. I am with him on this one. I see it as a potentially worthwhile and interesting mod.

Just the thought of the possibility of an increase in speed off wind is worth the price of admission.

The side benefits (to my mind) would be a slight amount of additional stowage (or buoyancy), more room in the cockpit. But the real advantages for me would be a potentially stiffer hull form, potential speed advantage and the opportunity to change a whole lot that bothers me about the cockpit arrangement and construction details chosen by the previous owner.

Maybe next year..........

[John Weigandt]

I launched my Weekender in Aug of '98, and have had her out in many varied conditons.

1. Pointing ability.. yes she can... not as well as some production boats but probably more a function of gaff rig and mast hoops vs marconi rig and streamlined mast/sail combo than anything else. You can get anywhere you're going to. Pinching too close is counter productive. fall off a little, and you may require a couple of extra tacks, but you'll get there faster. I have run circles around a CP16 and 19 on the river (production boats not particularly known for pointing) I have been breezed by many a time by Catalina 22 sailing both upwind and against the current. If you want to race this isn't the boat for you.

2. Tacking. I have missed a grand total of 2 tacks in the years I have been sailing this boat. Makes me wonder about the sailor. Once you figure out the forces, if you are using the designed self tending jib, you can simply pull in on the jib sheet as you come through the wind, and let the jib help you with the tack. (kinda but not quite like backwinding)

I think most people who are missing tacks don't use the jib in this manner, and are probably pinching too tight upwind, and don't have enough forward momentum. They may also be making too radical of a movement in the rudder and stalling it further reducing forward momentum. To paraphrase our secdef.. you sail the boat you went sailing in... not the one you wish you were in.

3. Wheel steering. If careful attention is paid, the wheel steering works as designed. Mine is. I have had 1 failure of the steering, and it was my fault.. I left some untrimmed rope ends too long, and they weaved in and out of the "turn loops" around the wheel shaft.. Locking the shaft from turning... oops. Once I fixed that and tensioned it again.. I have not had to touch the steering in all these years since. Wheel steering makes for more room in the cockpit, and there is no lack of responsiveness. I can put the rubrail of this boat in the water and ride the edge quite nicely and my boat is built as designed.

4. This becomes a much nicer boat if you put some weight forward. I carry about 50 to 75 lb in the fore peak (big mushroom, and a couple of danforth type anchors), and I have a deep cycle battery in the center of the boat in the companionway seatbox. The forward weight eliminates much of the pounding that you experience in rough chop, and yes, I've been out in it mostly then the high wind comes directly upriver opposing the current.... wahoo

5. 2 modifications I would make if I were to build again.. I would carry some small (even 1 inch tall) combing all the way astern.. when it rains and you are cruising/ camping, the boat as designed funnels water from the deck down into the cockpit. I would also raise the cabin just an inch or 2 to make moving around inside closer to a "sitting headroom" proposition. (I'm 5' 9")

6. Weather helm.. so what... with the mechanical advantage of the wheel as designed, no big deal. It ia also a safety factor for the beginner.. getting in trouble... let go of the sheet, and the wheel ..boat pops up and heads into the wind. Some folks have made bigger headsails with some success.

7. I have sailed the boat with polytarp and with nice dacron sails. The polytarp works quite well (I used the polysail higher quality stuff) I would put a bolt rope in the leach, because the tarp on mine streched over the years resulting in a lot of flapping where it was stretched on the back of the sail. this could probably be helped with the reinforcement of a small cord or bolt rope. The dacron is very nice, and currently has reef points which I have not had the opportunity to try. I have been out in winds high enough to preclude sailing to windward unreefed. I even sailed one day on lake monroe in building winds just for the experience. Every other sailboat disappeared from the lake, and I even bent a brass jib hank that day, but the boat stayed on its feet. I sailed with both sails up, Main only and jib only on various points.. finally running to a cove under the jib alone. DONT DO THIS ON YOUR FIRST SAIL

8 I even took the boat and did a camp cruise in Pensacola with my son. We cooked aboard, anchored out, and even brought along a coleman inflatable stored in the forepeak to use as a dink. We weathered a tropical depression while playing Wheel of Fortune on the gameboy in the cabin.

9. No boat is perfect, but this one carefully built, as designed is a heck of a lot of fun. Minor mods can make it better. Major mods.. at your own risk

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/s/gatherings/beercruise/free.htm

link to our cruise.

[Frank Hagan]

Ray, the P19 is the only other boat I have a lot of experience with, so I wouldn't know if it points any better than my buddy's Catalina 22 ... he claims he sails straight into the wind, surfing UP waves while holding the tiller with his pinkie, so I sometimes doubt his stories. But I do find my P19 points better than my Weekender, which I attribute to the difference between a bermudan and gaff rig.

Wider aft sections may not make a stronger boat, as the "torsion box" hull of the Weekender is very strong with the curve of the plywood. You may find it weaker, instead, but I think ... just by the seat of my pants ... that you won't be able to tell the difference in the two. The original P14 was plywood, and it was plenty strong (although boxy).

Greg, the Bolger design was one I saw after I built my boat. I built "to the plans" (as much as I could!) and the keel, mast angle, and rudder were built to the original specs. When I was building, I had several people tell me it wouldn't sail well because of the lack of a centerboard, and that it would "side slip" horribly. I do get some side slippage, but its not too bad, and it sails well.

I'll have to find that old Bolger plan; it was one of the few sailboats of his that I really liked. Mostly deck above, but with high freeboard, a large "barn door" centerboard up at the forefoot and a high aspect rudder. It was designed to keep all openings on the centerline so that, until you were nearly 90 degrees over, you were not in danger of getting water into the cabin.

[Guest]

Actually, in my normal opinionated opinion, this thread should be part of the plans, since this thread addresses choosing boats for us all, and another way of proper education for some not so experienced folks with wunderlust in their eyes. :twisted: Great read for me as I will be using it for my own read and for a class assignment for one kid.

[Greg Luckett]

Actually' date=' in my normal opinionated opinion, this thread should be part of the plans, since this thread addresses choosing boats for us all, and another way of proper education for some not so experienced folks with wunderlust in their eyes. :twisted: Great read for me as I will be using it for my own read and for a class assignment for one kid.[/quote']

Oyster, do you mean the Design Section here on this site? If so, I agree, but the thread started here in the Main Section. Is this something that Frank can migrate?

[P Doug (WA)]

Just want to say as a none sailor,as yet, and haven't even completed my first boat, as yet, this is a great thread! I don't even understand it all but enjoyed the read and it really showed me I have a lot to learn. Thanks to all for the great input, and I don't think anyone got "hurt feeling". This is great!

Thank you Jacob for asking the question. I think this thread will grow.

And by the way, if this had been in the design section I probably would not have read it. I figure design is for experienced people so starting here worked for me.

[Guest]

To answer your question Greg, I do mean the original set of plans from Mike. To address the reasoning for this, and as been addressed by several here, time has given us a lot of imput dealing with many new comers to the business and have been drawn to this unigue design. WIth all boats, comes characteristis of each one that can benefit people. These certain thoughts and comments, are neither good or bad, but just plain facts.

One minor issue, is that we have read on this particular board, comments that with some of these imput, can keep the builder in favorable company with their family. Heck, take a look at the steering comments, alone, which is high on my priority list of knowns.

Keeping this in mind, now, as I venture on my own project, at such given time, the particular handling comes into play for me, as I have never sailed anything that is so small to be so big as this boat. It has either been an 8 foot dinghy or 20 plus boat, and most certainly does not have any of the features as the Weekenders has shown for some builders.

[Craig]

I this a great discussion or what? If I had to go hire this experience and expertese I couldn't do it. What a resource!

[Jacob]

Every time Jacob posts....I think it is Frank. The Avatar twins.-

If that is confusing to anybody than I can change it.