CS 20 Capsize recovery

[Mike Vacanti]

I built my first boat, a Bolger Junebug, about 4 years ago and I swore I'd never build another boat, mostly due to the time required. But I want a larger boat to hold my wife and 3 kids along with our camping gear and provisions. I haven't found any stock boats I like. I like the light weight of the CS 20 and the very shallow draft. I also like the forward sections of the boat, I don't want my next boat to have the completely flat bottom of my Junebug.

I'm mildly concerned about the possibility of capsizing and then not being able to get the boat sailing again. I'm accustomed to sailing unballasted boats and don't think a capsize is likely but I would like to take the boat into San Francisco Bay with my family. If I knew I would require outside assistance in case of a capsize I would be nervous about taking the boat into anything other than small lakes. I did a search of this forum to see if anyone has ever capsized a CS 20 and got back underway unassisted. I found that Graham did this intentionally with the CS 17 but couldn't find anything regarding the CS 20. I only weigh 150 pounds, is it feasible for me to get the boat back on its' feet?

[Brent]

I have never capsized my CS20, so I really cant tell you how difficult it is to set right. I can tell you that I have sailed into the face of some stiff winds and the boat is very well behaved. I believe the hard chine design of the CSs is far more stable that similiar size round bottom boats. As the wind kicks up I find that reefing the boat makes for a safe and fast ride.

I doubt the 20 is significantly more difficult to write than the 17. Keep in mind these boats are very light weight for their size. If the CS20 is the right size for your intended use, then press on. Make sure your underseat floatation area is nicely sealed, have a line available to allow you to lean out for more leverage while standing on the centerboard, and get on with building the boat of your dreams.

[mustangermatt]

Ok, I have to throw in my pitch for the CS 17 since nobody else is :-)

I have never righted either boat, and I am just decking my 17 now so take my input for what it is worth. I am an experienced sailor however on both large and small boats...

First off the hull weight of the 20 is considerably greater than the 17 (30%). I am guessing that this will make the 20 more difficult to right, but it is only a guess and I have no idea how much difference. I have a software mock up of the 17 that gives predicted righting moments etc for different angles of heel. If I get time I will do the same for the 20 and compare them.

The most common reasons people give for choosing the 20 over the 17 that I have read are room and carrying capacity. There is no doubt the 20 has more room, the cockpit is a couple feet longer and almost a foot wider. I have had my family of 6 in our 17 on the cradle. We seem to fit fine with lots of extra room, but then we all like each other and that might change after 4 or 5 hours becalmed :-)

It is important to note that the designed carrying capacity or "payload" for both boats is the same (600 lbs) because of the 20's heavier hull. So you get more room but you can't put any more weight in it (I am just going by Grahams numbers here).

I like both boats alot, but in my case less is better for the use we plan. Either way I don't think you can go wrong.

[Scott Dufour]

Matt brings up a good point. I'm reading Jim Michalak's book on boat building, and his main reason for suggesting boats in the 15 foot range is that they can still be righted singlehanded. Once you get much bigger, the difficulty goes up quickly.

I got the CS17 because I'm and inexperienced sailor. I sat in my basement and imagined it to be the sea. I could picture me in a 17 footer (albeit somewhat nervously), but for some reason 20 feet seemed like a bit much. That would probably disappear after some time on the water, though. Since I've no idea what I'm doing, I may find that the imagined difficulties are lesser or greater then actuality.

I digress, though, since you already know how to sail and those issues aren't likely to be a problem for you.

They get some pretty nasty chop in many of the places these CSs are sailed, and I can't remember anybody mentioning capsizing them. Most of the discussions are about reefing systems that do a great job of preventing the capsize....

[P Doug (WA)]

Scott,

I have to ask, because I am in the same boat as you (so to speak), I know nothing about sailing other than reading "Sailing for Dumbies". Are you going to take it out alone and learn by trial and error or do you have someone to instruct you. I've contacted the local sailing club here to see if there was some one who would give instruction and so far no takers. I figure when I get a boat done and show up with it someone will help me. This is not a hugh sailing area. My son sails, but he is in the Navy and always gone. Maybe when I get done, he can take leave and teach, ya right!

[Tim]

There is always the possiblity that during a capsize the boat will turtle and you will not be able to recover on your own. Although capsizes have not been reported with these boats and turtling is very unlikely you have to be prepared for the worse.

But even thinking of this there is no reason you could not learn to sail single handed. You just need to follow the basics, floatation, light to moderate wind, watching weather conditions, reefing, staying in well traveled, sheltered waters, PFD, distress signal devices, etc. Also learn how to avoid the accidental jibe which is usually what gets new sailers - I know from experience :oops: . But according to the B&B web site jibing is less scary with this rig probably because there is no big boom to swing over.

[mustangermatt]

I think the big difference in a jibe for sprit and boom sails is that the sprit sail has a constant downward pressure on the clew (aft lower corner) applied by the angle of the sprit. On the traditional boom there is nothing but the sheet to hold it down. As the sheet is eased going down wind the angle of the sheet changes and now there is nothing but gravity holding the boom down. Wind pressure from astern twists the leach (back edge) of the sail forward and lifting the boom. As the boom lifts the sheet that was flat now forces the boom to arc inward as it goes up, sometimes far enough that the wind from astern will start to fill the sail from the "back" side. Now the boom swings to the other side, and the sail with it, with a banging crash when the sheet comes tight on the other side. This is often when the capsize occurs on smaller boats. I have never done a "scientific analysis" of this, but I think that more than the weight of the boom it is the weight of the air mass trapped in the sail that causes such havoc. In a controlled jibe the mainsheet is taken all the way in reducing the amount of travel on the sail as it goes over. On larger boats like gaff schooners you will often see them avoid a jibe at all (controlled or uncontrolled) by wearing all the way around into the wind and actually tacking, then they fall off onto the new reach.

Sorry to get so wordy on this, the topic just brought back some fond memories of 470's when I was young :-)

[Scott Dufour]

So what do we think about righting a capsized CS20?

[Brent]

So what do we think about righting a capsized CS20?

If my boat ever goes over, here is the method I will use to right her. In this discussion there is some concern about righting a boat this size. Yes, larger boats are more difficult, and having a couple of people will make the job easier, but based on experience righting other boats, including some 20 footers that are a bit heavier, I am pretty sure I can get her on her feet.

1 count heads. If I am by myself, I will take a moment to access my own status, including taking a moment to just relax and take a deep breath. When sailing solo I wear a life jacket, but if everybody doesn't have one on already now is the time.

2 loose the sheets, and get the centerboard fully extended.

3 get the anchor out. If conditions are not so severe, I may skip this step, but more than likely if the boat is over the wind is ripping. I will use the anchor to point the bow into the wind.

4 attach a tag line somewhere mid ships to hang onto while standing on the centerboard.

5 with the boat facing into the wind, climb up on the centerboard, and while grasping the tag line use my weight to start to roll the boat. The tag line allows my skinny bones to get much further away from the center of bouyancy and produce more leverage than simply hanging onto the gunwale. Here is where I will be glad I sealed the top of my masts with foam. If the masts get full of water this part might be real difficult.

6 almost everytime I have done this in a breeze once the mast start to rise out of the water the wind pressure flowing under the sails aids considerably with righting the boat. In fact the boat might go from on her side to upright very quickly. This is a hazard for me standing on the centerboard.

7 climb in. Open the bailers, take a breather. When ready bring up the anchor and get the sails drawing. I carry a large bucket to help with bailing. Once the boat gets moving I expect the bailers will take care of most of the water, but I might need to bail with the bucket to bring the gunwales up and lighten the boat so she can move more quickly which will make the bailers more efficient.

[Rob Blackburn]

Well for my 2 bobs worth...

I have a laser that is the twitchiest most unforgiving boat to sail short of a Moth I reckon. They teach you anticipation and insight...

Round bottom, light, over powered and has a boom that WON'T go forward of the mast. That word won't is the big one I reckon. As the earlier post puts it most out of control capsizes are the result of out of control gybes. Typically arriving at the bottom mark at speed and with the sail on the wrong side.

We have deliberately gybed our cs 20 in big conditions to see what happens and now can't imagine how you could tip it gybing. I simply can't. For the wind to be strong enough you would have let go the main long ago and rolled it up or let it flog. That is the beauty of the rig. If you let go the main sheet, the thing will weather cock to any angle down wind. What can go wrong at this point? The noise would be bad but that is it.

My point is .. if and when you gybe in big winds and you simply have plenty of sheet in hand to let go, the low centre of effort relatively speaking of the rig and the fact you can get the sail straight around to spill the wind on any angle of sail will save you.

To tip going to weather would require you to leave the main on, mizzen off and sit to the centre, even then I wonder whether the rudder would lose authority and you would gybe around on the shoulder of the hull? I reckon that that would be the only way to lose it.

On reflection, I think you would take some water.. but hey, that would be a day to remember. I can't imagine how you would get into that spot.

Who knows, maybe we need a prize for the first to do it and tell.

Rob

[Ken_Potts]

The prize is a great idea, Rob.

If I was a CS20 owner I would be heading out to the lake with a buddy (right now!) to capsize the boat and make the solo righting attempt. I guess it just sounds like fun to me. One of you CS20 guys get out there and DO it so we can all hear the report!

Oh yeah - Try to take a buddy who has a waterproof camera...