OK lets talk some designs

[Guest Paul J [Aberdeen, Wa]]

Why don't we kick start this forum with some talk about some sail boat designs. Keeping in mind we are looking at designs 20' or less so they fit right in with Frank's Small Boat section he is working on. That plus they are buildable in a garage/boatshop by most people. Cool?

Here's what I am looking at for designs of boats I am growing to like by the day and the more I think about design overall the more I like them, seeing as how we are not talking about world class blue water boats here. So here goes.

I am growing fond of the cat ketch rig or the cat schooner rig depending on really small nit pick stuff. But I like these rigs. They are real user friendly to put it in computer terms and in sailing terms easy to sail. That is always a real big plus as far as I am concerned. So here's some designs I like to date.

I do like, and it's kinda growing on me more and more as time goes by, is John's Sharpie from CLC, plans available. It is a long narrow boat with an even sail plan, meaning both the main and mizzen are the same size, and the rig design offers a modern set of sails as to the sail design and easy reefing always a plus. It is a flat bottomed sharpie hull and looks to be a very straight forward build. It has a nice blend of being simple yet may have a wild side to it. Being narrow it will be a fun ride yet stable. I like it.

Now another design I like quite a bit is the Core Sound 17 and 20 from B&B Yacht Designs. Again a cat ketch rig for easy sail handling and both in the garage/boatshop size range. It will be a bit more of a build than the CLC sharpie as it is V-bottomed and a straight stitch and glue boat. But still they are quite nice looking and do have a nice track record in light racing. Always a plus to look at when trying to decide on a boat. Good features too for camping.

For those who are a bit more in the mainstream of sail plans but still looking for a good all round daysailer that is a straight forward build and can be done in any garage/boatshop is the Ace 14. It is a sloop rig with a nice sail plan and good for two or three to sail. I have made a set of sails for one and the sail plan like I said is nicely designed for the size of the boat. Not a bad little design.

There are more designs to begin discussing here and as we get together and work on learnig a boat design program this is a start. Keeping in mind that we are talking about small boats that are cost effective and will give years of sailing pleasure as out prime goal here.

Now I personally can't wait to see what Dale has got going with his work on Uffa Fox's small boat designs. The man did some really fine looking hulls, really fine looking. You guys will like them alot. But they are more complicated builds as you do need some skills to build them. But still some fine hull shapes.

So what do you guys have in mind here, what designs do you like and what do you want to learn about boats and designing them and sailing them. Let's hear your opinions or your thoughts on this.

Paul J

Disclaimer; Yeah we all know the Stevenson boats but that's not what we are talking about here. Lets broaden our horizons a little.

paul@ultasail.com

[Guest Frank Hagan, Weekender, O]

I like Graham's boats over at B&B Yacht Designs, and I took a second look at the Core Sound models. Very nice day sailers. Here's a pic of the 17' with 4 adults and a dog:

And a construction shot of the hull of the 20' version of the Core Sound:

I fell in love with one of the B&B's larger boats, the 22' Princess Sharpie. But it is getting to be pretty big at that size. And you do get into some diagonal ply planking at the bow. Still, it is a nice looking boat:

I hadn't looked at John's Sharpie, but it does seem to fit into that same type.

CLC Boats "John's Sharpie"

fshagan@ev1.net

[Guest Paul J [Aberdeen, Wa]]

Frank sorry I should have put up a link to the boats. Guess I was just lazy.

There are a couple of differences in the boats mostly in the beam of the boats and a little in sail area. John's Sharpie is a flat bottomed design and has a beam of 4'6" for an 18' boat which is quite narrow but also makes for a finer entry in the bow sections so even though a flat bottomed boat will not pound like some other flat bottomed boats tend to do. Here's an image that shows the beam of the hull better.

Now another boat that also is in the same vein being a sharpie hull and a cat ketch is the CK 17 designed by J. Mertens. It is also flat bottomed but carries a 6' beam on a 17' hull. I could not find a photo of a finished one so here is the graphic computer image of the boat.

The B&B Core Sound 17 is a V bottomed design and carries a 5' 10" beam on the 17' hull. They also have another sharpie type design they named the Bay River Skiff. It is a flat bottomed boat also and carries a beam of just over 5' on a 15' boat. It to is a cat ketch as are all these boats.

All the boats here are cat ketches and all except for John's Sharpie are sprit boom leg o mutton sails. A leg o mutton is a straight triangle sail with no roach and the clew is higher than the tack of the sail. Foot tension is developed by adjusting the sprit boom. John's Sharpie has a conventional boom and the sails have a roach and are battened.

Each has it's good points, the sprit sail is self vanging while Johns needs a boom vang, jiffy reefing can be done on John's while the others can not and reefing is a bit more work, the B&B boats have rotating masts so the sail is furled around the mast, John's has to be bent on for each sail, I don't know about the CK 17. But all are free standing masts [no shrouds] not more than 22' long and would be easy to step.

All of the boats here are well within the realm of most all home builders and all are within a 100 lbs in boat weight. All have nearly the same draft of about 6" and can be single handed but best sailed by two or three people. John's Sharpie and the CK 17 have dagger boards while the B&B's have centerboards. All have two cockpits, and all can be used for camping.

All appear to be nicely powered with their sail plans. Each of these boats has the ability also fly a staysail for extra power off the wind in light airs. All in all some nice small boats that would be in a easy budget.

But enough of what I think. I also like the Ace 14 and several other boats too. But I am getting lazier as I get older and the way these boats are designed with the cat ketch and easy sailing well I like that idea more and more each day.

Paul J

paul@ultasail.com

[Guest Konrad in Lincoln]

The CLC sharpie has always been a favorite of mine. But not their price for the danged thing.

Me votes for that.

[Designer]

Just a quick heads up here - I noted that Paul said in his post of May 19th that the B&B Yacht Designs models - Bay River Skiffs are flat-bottomed....they are in fact V-bottomed.

[Frank Hagan]

Thought I'd also add a pic of the ACE 14 Paul mentions, its by Arch Davis Designs, who has done some wonderful looking boats:

His site is at http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/index.html for those who want to see his other designs. I love his Penobscot 14 and 17 too ... really elegant looking boats:

[Paul J]

Sorry Graham at the time I was under the impression that they where flat bottomed designs. It's nice to know they are v-bottomed.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Hopefuly this picture of my Penobscot 14 will come through.

[attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

[Frank Hagan]

Hopefuly this picture of my Penobscot 14 will come through.

Very nice! I know these are great "pulling boats," which track nicely with oars. How does she sail?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Frank she sails wonderfully, But she is also the only boat I have ever sailed so I really cant compare with anything else.

She is tender but under sail she stiffens up when she is heeled a bit. So far I haven't capsized her, but everything I've read about small boat sailing said its not if but when. I did do a capsize test to see how she would do full of water. I rigged her with a lug rig because of the simplicity of rigging at the ramp.

Next week we are hauling her to Oak Island NC. on vacation hope to get in some sailing and exploring.

I guess I wasnt totally successful posting that picture but it was a start.

Scott

[Frank Hagan]

You did fine on the picture ... if its too large (dimension-wise), it shows as a link. That prevents the size of the picture making the entire forum scroll right and left.

[Donold]

Dear Sailors,

    this is my first post here.  I have previously built a Bolger Teal (twice).  The first version truncated the stern to make a flat iron sharpie and a Sunfish sail proved to be perfect.  The second Teal was built according to plans and proved to be sort of a cayak/canoe with the pointed stern.  I have my garage tied up with a hobby car project that is nearing completion and I am considering various pocket cruiser plans.  Has anyone here ever seen, sailed or heard of the "Blue Moon" design given on

http://www.grandpasarchive.com/boatplans/sail/blue-moon.pdf

By reading between the lines and gaining experience reading many plans over the last few years it would seem that the stern of the Blue Moon is too narrow.  The writeup notes that a 50 pound bag of sand is needed in the bow for balance and I interpret that to mean the stern "squats" and no wonder with that narrow transom.  I am interested in a very inexpensive buildup that will last me a few years while I am active, but not break the bank so I am considering using exterior plywood with epoxy coating.  My inclination would be to increase the width of the transom to almost the same size as the maximum beam, maybe just four inches narrower than the maximum beam.  The sail looks to be a bit too small but that might help stability and the wider transom should also add stability.  Overall the Blue Moon hull shape looks to be too wide for much speed but might have a little more interior room than the Glen-L Minuet and cheaper to build.  I like the idea that the Blue Moon has space beside the main bunk for a small stove and a porta-potti in the cabin.  All I want is shallow draft and interior space to change clothes or camp in.  Although this design looks to be slow that is not very important to me since a small outboard will be used anyway.  With all the experience here on this Forum are there any critical comments about the Blue Moon design, good or bad?

Donold

[Tom Lathrop]

CLC doesn't offer John's Sharpie any more.  It has been found to be too tender and unstable for most people with its narrow beam and large sail area.  Those are John's words not mine.

It is instructive to look at the photo Frank posted of the Penobscot also.  A very good looking boat with what many would call "sweet" lines.  Looking at the aft buttocks, it is clear that there is very little power in the stern sections.  What does that mean?  It means that it is restricted to displacement speeds and trying to carry on in higher wind with full sail will make it cranky to handle, especially downwind.  Tender and trying to dig a hole in the water.  Handled properly with the right amount of sail, it can be fine but, in wind strong enough to promote planing or even close to it, it can never even approach the performance of a boat like the Core Sound or Bay River Skiff.  No racing boat that aspires to performance will ever have lines like that.

So, we have apples and oranges here.  Some will like one and others will prefer the other but subjective impressions are not too enlightening.

[Tom Lathrop]

Charlie's computer is not feeling well so he asked me to post some photos of his answer to the tenderness problem with John's Sharpie.  Graham designed amas and akas to make the sharpie into a trimaran and he and Laura sailed it in the Texas 200 last year. He says that it is now a stable boat and fun to sail much faster than in its original form.  It can also be self rescued now following the usual capsizing disaster whereas it floated too low to be bailed previously.

[PAR]

Having sailed sharpies of those general dimensions as a kid, you have to keep them on their feet with crew weight or they'll reward you with a capsize in a heartbeat. They're fun to sail in moderate winds, but you have to have the crew for the boat or reduce sail area considerably, which was often done.

[Tom Lathrop]

Local North Carolina sharpies which are derived from the New Haven sharpies vary quite a bit with no two being alike.  Some are cat ketches of length well into the thirties.  Some are the more indigenous Sprits'l skiffs.  All are heavily built without ballast and adapted to working for oysters and such in the extreme shallows behind the outer banks.  None are very fast in relation to more modern versions.  John's Sharpie is far lighter, of less beam with greater power to weight ratio and will be much faster than any of these.  There are many, many derivations of sharpies sailing and the Windmill is one of these.

John Harris is very familiar with the Windmill (both he and his father sail them) and I imagine that thinking went into his sharpie.  It would be a fun boat for those willing to accept its character.

[Red Planet]

The photos of Charlie's John's Sharpie trimaran are intriguing. My wife and I (in our late 60s) once did a bit of camp cruising and trailer sailing and are looking to get back into it, this time with a more stable platform. Earlier this year we sailed for an hour or so in a Sea Pearl 21 tri and loved it. I've been looking ever since for a sharpie I might build and convert to three hulls for camp cruising in shoal waters.

Charlie's tri conversion is beautiful. The John's Sharpie is a little smaller than we had in mind but it might work. If built from scratch, would it be possible to pick up a little interior room by exchanging the centerboard for a leeboard or two? Still, for camp cruising, not much freeboard there and it looks like it might be a wet ride.

I like the Core Sound series and have been toying with the thought of building a CS 20 and adding an ama or two (again, for stability), but am concerned that the beam/length ratio of the CS is too great to make a tri that is capable of good cruising performance.

If it were possible to convert the CS 20 into a camp-cruising tri that is weatherly (within reason) and comes about smartly, I think that would be my ideal boat.

I look at photos of the CS 20 and imagine it with amas. Then I think, nah, won't work. Then I see Charlie's John's Sharpie and the thought returns. Now it won't go away.

Surely there are folks on this forum smart enough to disabuse me of the idea of a CS trimaran.

Larry Martin

[Ken_Potts]

  If you like the Sea Pearl Trimaran You should definitely go that route.  There's one I see at Jordan Lake fairly often and it looks like good fun.  I've camp-cruised a Sea Pearl (not a tri) a little bit and it carries lots of gear comfortably, though I felt it was a bit tender without the outriggers - I've seen, but not sailed, the trimaran and the deck appears to add lots of space to the basic Sea Pearl.  Seems like a good camping platform.

  If you're looking to build, rather than buy a boat hopefully someone will chime in with a good camp-cruiser designed as a tri from the start.  I bet there are some good ones out there.

  In my uneducated opinion the Sea Pearl would make a better trimaran than a Core Sound.  As you mentioned the Core sound might be a bit beamier (at the waterline at least).  I don't know if you'll be able to take advantage of the Core Sound's ability to plane once you add the extra hulls.  I think a canoe-type hull with a narrow beam below the waterline is better for a tri than a planing hull.  You can cheat the hull speed a lot with a long skinny profile and the outriggers allow the possibility of flaring the main hull above the waterline to get lots of accommodation.  Take a look at the Farrier trimarans.  They might be bigger than what you're looking for but they look like they use the skinny underwater profile and beamy topsides to good advantage and they might be a good yardstick (I've never seen one in real life, so don't mistake me for an expert - Come to think of it, don't mistake me for an expert in anything nautical  ).

  Then again, John's Sharpie with Graham's outriggers might be a great camper too.  Charlie, what do you think?

[Red Planet]

We like almost everything about the Sea Pearl tri. It's cat-ketch rig, stability, leeboards, roominess, easy handling, camping capabilities etc etc. The two principal obstacles are a) high cost of a new boat/motor/trailer with ground tackle and camping canvas, and unavailability of affordable, well-found used boats. One possible route is to buy an older monohull Sea Pearl and take it down to Marine Concepts for conversion, but even that's pricey. Dang.

Which is why I'm thinking about about building a plywood sharpie and adding amas.

Jim Brown, with his wonderful book, is actually the guy who started me down this rabbit hole back in the 70s, and I've had a soft spot for tris ever since. Ian Farrier's trailerable tris are hard to beat, but more boat than we want now, and more money, too. We talked to Farrier at the Annapolis Boat Show in the mid-80s and came very close to buying one of the first F-27s. The F-22 looks to be a great building project, but expensive and more complex than I'm prepared to undertake. A sharpie hull, though maybe not the best vaka for a tri, is so easy to build!

When I say the Farrier tris are more boat than we want, I think I'm saying that we're not looking for a cabin. We've owned a Com-Pac 19 (in which we had a ball), a Hunter 25, and three or four trailerable power boats, one of which had a sleepover cuddy, and we've chartered on larger sailboats. We've also canoe-camped extensively, and we've learned that a permanent cabin is not our favorite part of the boat. A good open boat, with a bimini for sun protection and a fabric enclosure for sleeping fairly dry and moderately bug-free, I think that's the way we want to go.

There are a lot of small, open tris around that do much of what I'd like except provide the opportunity for sleeping aboard.

Your right, Ken. I should just go buy a Sea Pearl tri. But I'll probably keep noodling the problem for a while, trying to come up with something I can build and/or convert to do the job.

Larry Martin

[Ken_Potts]

Your right, Ken. I should just go buy a Sea Pearl tri. But I'll probably keep noodling the problem for a while, trying to come up with something I can build and/or convert to do the job.

Well I think you've found a good home here then  ;D (by the way - Welcome aboard)

It sounds like you're well on your way to finding a good boat for your needs.

Here's a thought - I've occasionally seen HUGE canoes (think moose-hunting)  I bet an old beat up one would make a good hull to tinker with (or a set of canoe plans might be a good starting point).  Lee boards would keep the cockpit clean and trampolines would increase the usable space.  That still doesn't necessarily make a good boat for sleeping aboard, though.