New Builder looking at CS17

[Joel B]

Tom has a good point.  I guess what I am afraid of is building the cs 17 and then later wishing I would have built the 20.  I guess it could just as easily be the other way. I might build the 20 and regret not having built the 17.

Joel

[Terry Dunn]

Tough decision between a CS 20, CS 17 and BRS 15 and BRS 17.

I measured my garage to decide how big a boat to build. My garage is 20' 7" so I figured I could build a CS 20. It worked. I may have had an inch to spare. For my use a CS 17 would have been just fine 99% of the time and would be easier to handle. Probably easier to row as well. Launching and retrieving my CS 20 has not been a problem where I have sailed. I have had 6 people in my CS 20 a few times. There are time I think I should have built a 17 and times I am glad I built the 20.

Perhaps you should build one of each and let us know how it works out.

Pulling a CS 20 out of the water onto a beach would be a bit tough. It would probably take 6 of me.  I think pulling a CS 17 out of the water would be a bit tough as well. Perhaps 4 of me.  With inflatable rollers it might take less effort than I think. Something to think about.  I suppose 20 years ago 4 of me would be equivalent to 6 of me at my current age.

I have not sailed in a 17 but I have seen my 20 and Tim

[ecgossett]

On the Hobie Cat 16' I carried 4" pipes bungeed under my tramp.. Fully loaded with camping gear it made it nice for rolling out of the water....

[Joel B]

OK totally newbie question.  Whats A tabernacle?  I'm from Utah so I don't think what I have pictured in my mind is what you guys mean.  My tabernacle houses a choir not a mast

[PeterP]

It is a hinging mechanism for the mast. Look at the bottom of Graham's mainmast -you'll get the idea. PeterP

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

Joel

Having built a CS 17 and sailed her for 4 years if found her plenty big enough - and at times on the edge of too big when the tide had gone out a bit and I wanted to push her back in the water on my own, getting launched on and off a beach rather than a boat ramp etc.  I am currently building a Lapwing - mainly to have a go at lapstrake and end up with a curved hull - but also because it is a bit smaller and lighter and most of my sailing is on my own. 

I would go with the CS 17 unless you have a real reason for the larger and slightly faster CS 20.

If you read this Tom I would be interested in your comments how you find the size of Lapwing compared to a CS 17 and to your BRS 15

[Joel B]

Thanks for the input.  I'm beginning to realize that sometimes smaller is better.  You've given me something to think about. I'm sold on the Core Sound design and my thinking was that as long as I'm going to put in the time, effort and money I might as well step it up to the 20.  For the majority of my sailing that will be around Utah I don't think I would need to haul it out of the water and the 20 will allow me to take along an extra person or two for the ride.  When I dream about sailing though it is in the coastal waters of Mexico and the 17 might be to my advantage there because I could see wanting to haul it out of the water at night.  I have a couple of months to think about it because I can't start building until late August at the earliest. But now I have something to think about.

Thanks

Joel

[Tom Lathrop]

Joel

If you read this Tom I would be interested in your comments how you find the size of Lapwing compared to a CS 17 and to your BRS 15

Richard,

I asked Graham for a boat that would give the performance of the CS15 with lapstrake construction and be extra good looking.  The extra 8" of length came about because I thought the bow would look much better with more rake and smoother lines in the strakes.  Both boats are larger than the BRS15 in beam and height of the sheer, so volume is much greater.  Lapwing is just a bit larger in both measurements than the CS15.  Both Lapwing and CS15 will handle bigger water more comfortably (and drier) than the BRS which has also handled rough water very well.

I did not expect that building simplicity would approach either of the other boats so that was not an issue.  The new kit goes a long way toward leveling that field.  I accept the fact that the CS17 is larger, faster and takes more passengers but Lapwing is plenty big enough for me.  I think the CS17 is a big as I would go for a small family daysailer.  That is just my opinion and means nothing to someone who finds the CS20 more to their liking.

[Designer]

Tom has a different memory as to the bow shape and the extra 8" on Lapwing than I do.

I think that the CS17 would be the best boat for the Baja cruise. Even a loaded BRS 15 would be hard to drag up a beach single handed, but it should be easy to set an anchor up the beach and run a block and tackle to the bow eye and drag a CS17 up on rollers. The Seapearls which are seriously heavy boats are routinely dragged off the beach singlehanded in the Everglades Challenge.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom has a different memory as to the bow shape and the extra 8" on Lapwing than I do.

As to be expected.  It is interesting to note how such memories can be different. My memory of our conversation about this particular point is exactly as I said and that is exactly what I intended.  We were obviously in early discussions about the boat and our brains were looking at different aspects.  When I suggested a longer bow, it was for appearance only and not for any practical reason.  Graham may have thought about the extra length for more bow buoyancy or a drier bow in waves or some other very practical reason.  I actually suggested 6" which increased to 8" when he drew it. 

Maybe Graham will come back with his memories.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Joel B]

Before this conversation I was absolutely convinced that I wanted the 20 and now my brain hurts.  I will definitely weigh the options now. More brain hurting.

[Joel B]

I read a thread the other day (that I cant find) where people were extolling the virtues of cheap reliable painting equipment (including compressor).  I am in the process of buying equipment and I would like a system that doesn't kill my budget.  Also in order to sell this capital equipment purchase to the board of trustees/CEO and goddess of my universe I will have to be able to use it to paint the house this summer as well as the boat.

Any suggestions

Thanks

Joel

[PeterP]

I like my Fuji HVLP. I bought the gun and put the turbine end together myself. Saved a fair bit of money that way. I mostly use the gun for spraying woodwork, doors and such. Spraying boats alone would not justify the the outlay. The gun costs but I really like the low overspay. Rolling your finish is an option. I know lot of people who do -Tom being the most notable example- and they get excellent results. PeterP

[ecgossett]

Spraying also costs more for proper protection and a good clean area to do it in...

[ecgossett]

Would using Biscuit Joints work well for the CS17 instead of scarfing?

If you want to know what biscuit joints are here you go:

http://www.woodzone.com/articles/biscuit/biscuit_joiner.htm

Oh does anyone live near St Marys GA / Jax Fl. with a core sound?

Later, Edward

[Hirilonde]

Some times one word is sufficient to answer a question.

[ecgossett]

Hey, just trying to make the process cheaper.... Lowes has a nice price on a joiner.

I have to buy a table saw, belt sander, various hand saws and hand planers from Lowes. I also need to figure out how many clamps and what kind that I need. A few can be borrowed from my father.. Do I need pipe clamps?

Before I forget what type of layout and measuring tools are recommended for transcribing the plans onto the wood?

[Ken_Potts]

   I agree with Ray that a biscuit joiner will not make a good edge joint for panels of plywood.  Scarf joints can be cut with any type of plane or sander that is intended to go through a lot of material (A random orbital sander will not do it but a belt sander will).  I don't have quite the aversion to belt sanders that Ray does but I also don't have quite the plane collection

   If you do have access to a table saw the project will be a lot easier - If you don't have a table saw you can still build the boat.  A jig saw is a very handy tool for this kind of project especially when paired with a block plane to clean up wavy cuts (cut just outside the line and plane to it).  A few chisels are good too.  For sharpening chisels and other edges do a google search for "scary sharp" and read the process for using a flat surface and progressively finer grades of sandpaper.  It's good information even if you decide to buy a fancy sharpening system later.  For sanding a surface fair you can make a longboard as I did from a strip of plywood and a couple of blocks.  I learned all about the longboarding process from Ray and other fine folks on this forum.

   You will absolutely never have enough clamps no matter what.  The good news is the majority of your clamps can be of the $2.00 variety - The PVC ring clamps Ray mentioned are almost free.  Once in a while it is good to have a few bar clamps to glue up a centerboard or something.

   If you've got a fully stocked woodworking shop you're all set to build a boat.  If you've got the time and inclination to spend figuring out how to make do with what you've got you're also all set to build a boat.    There's all flavor of builders just like there's all flavor of boats.

   The single most important tool in my boat shop is this forum.

[Apteryx]

Epoxy seemed to me to need some help, so I followed your same line of reasoning.

I bought a biscuit joiner, thinking I could use it to make a stronger centerboard.  Wrong assumption on my part, I'm afraid.

The problem seems to be without water based glues to swell up the biscuits they provide zero strength.

There's an experiment that will show how well epoxy does it's job, though.  Take two pieces of wood, cut to fit two true surfaces together.  Sand them to make as perfect a match as you can with as little 'tooth' as possible - just two machined surfaces with no irregularities to give glue any grip at all.

Wet the surfaces with epoxy, then spooge on some thickened epoxy.  The un-thick epoxy will get absorbed into the wood, the thickened epoxy will find any gaps that exist.  With the wood pre-soaked with un-thick epoxy it will leave your thickened epoxy alone and won't wick epoxy away.

Clamp the pieces enough to squeeze some epoxy out around all the edges.  Wait for a full cure, maybe 24 hours.

Now apply violence to the joint.  When you manage to break it, it should break somewhere in the wood.  The joint should be stronger than the surrounding wood.  It looks to me like the structure you end up with is sort of a three part thing - two pieces of wood with an intervening layer of plastic (the cured epoxy).  The cured plastic isn't just between the two pieces of wood, though, it's infused into the wood a short distance on either side of the joint.

And a disclaimer - I don't know very much about what I'm doing, but it's fun learning.  Be sure to protect yourself from epoxy exposure.  It's nasty stuff and easy to hate, but it does the job.

I've gotten a little good service out of a power planer.  I don't know about plywood, but for scarfing 1x4 it saved some time, at least getting started.  I finished the scarf up with a hand plane.  There's no way I could make a precision surface with the power plane, it's just too aggressive.  Sort of like trimming one's moustache with a weed eater.  In theory you would think you could do the job, but in practice it's a little hard to control.

[sscoville]

I was told that biscuits were merely for alignment and the joints are no stronger than a butt joint.  I was also under the impression that a butt joint will be stronger than the wood, if done properly, and scarf joints' biggest advantage is that when bending at the joint, you get a fair curve.  I've only built one boat, however. 

I only had to make one scarf joint on that project - two sheets of 1/4 ply.  I used a low angle block plane, a standard block plane, and a jack plane - they were what I had on hand.  I think the low angle block is preferable because you're cutting end grain when cuting plywood and that's what the low angle is for.  The other two planes were better quality and sharper and didn't cause any major problems cutting the scarf.  I think I finished it with a belt sander.

I was intimidated at first.  It was my first application of fiberglass that gave me trouble, however.

By the way, using hand planes is fun work  .