New Builder looking at CS17

[ecgossett]

I'm a new builder with experience in canvas/sailmaking as well as owning several boats including a C&C 25 & Hobie 16.

I have questions on:

1) Details on the homemade blocks and other hardware or where can I find this information? How easily can the more advanced rigging on a C20 be applied to a C17. With the sail wrapping around the mast will using slugs ruin that?

2) Can the whole boat be build out of marine Marine Douglas Plywood?

3) Would this boat be possible using a structural foam with each side coated with fiberglass? Similar to a www.f-boat.com  (the F-22 building process)

4) Who designeds the sails (where I can find details). Did anyone use a www.sailrite.com kit? Does the info come with the plans.

5) I have read about a 3rd sail but cannot find anything in forums.. Does anyone have details?

5) Does information for spars, masts, locker detail, etc come with the plans?

6) Do the plans have trailer requirements.

Basically being a new builder will the plans give me enough information to build this boat. Should I pick up any books to assist me with this?

Last question, would buying the pre-cut kit help or is it more of an expense then help.

[PAR]

Home made blocks are of several different types, stropped, dumb sheave, what I call strapped where the body is wood, but the becket and loops are metal straps (bronze or stainless), etc. Duck Works had a article about stropped blocks a few years ago. I can email you some block plans if you drop me an email.

Yes, the boat can be made out of Douglas fir marine plywood, but finishing is more difficult as it checks, splits, is heavier and turns to a washboard when sanded. This is why Okoume is preferred.

Sure you could build a foam cored version, though the plans don't offer this option. You'd have to calculate the skin thicknesses and laminate schedules for the anticipated loads yourself or get professional help.

Graham designed the sails and he would be the place for more details.

The third sail is a mizzen mule or what many call a mizzen staysail. It's a light air, off wind sail that can increase horse power substantially.

The plans are complete, including spars, lockers, etc.

A completed CS-17 doesn't weigh much (400 pounds full up, with rig). Any small boat trailer can handle one, adjust the keel rollers and bunks to fit.

Down loading the epoxy user's guides from the major epoxy formulators is a good start, though the plans do cover making fillets, applying tape on the seams and a general construction guide.

A pre-cut kit will offer many things. The plywood will be good stuff, the seams will fit, no miss measured cuts and a fair amount of effort can be saved. In the big picture of the total build process, the amount of time and effort saved will not be as significant as you might expect, as fairing, painting and the little details that make the project a finished boat consume a large portion of the build. In the end it would be up to you depending on a number of factors, such as skill levels with wood working, following the instructions in the plans, tools available, etc.

I think any reasonably handy person that's capable of problem solving will find the build rewarding and fairly easy. You sound like just this type of person. Go for it.

[Hirilonde]

Everything PAR said and you can come here during the build to ask questions.  We don't charge much.  ;D

[Tom Lathrop]

What Paul and Ray said.  No set of boat plans encompasses all that must be known without some other information and skill inputs.  Some level of common working skills must be assumed in all but the simplest floating box and would be an advantage even there.

Graham's plans have evolved over years of building, sailing and making changes with input from builders (and this forum) so that they are, or become, the best that can be had.

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

I built a stitch and glue kayak before embarking on a CS17 - so that gave me some idea of working with epoxy, fiberglass, ply and reading plans.

Having said that I basically just decided I wanted to give building a sail boat a go.  I found Graham's plans (along with the CD of pictures - 'worth a 1000 words') and his explanations excellent.  I would highly recommend both Graham's designs and plans to you.  I found Sam Devin's book 'Devin's Boat Building' as useful supplement in terms of this style of building.

You will also find just about anything you might want to know searching this site or posting a question.  It is a very supportive support group for boat building addicts.

I have now bought plans for a Lapwing from Graham and am starting that project.

[PAR]

I've admitted to my addiction and now am in a 12 step program . . .

[ecgossett]

I have 3 kids... Four, Three, and One...

Would a CS20 be a smarter build for the extra room and easier lines?

[ecgossett]

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/boatgear/TRAI-SLDCK-250.html

Would this trailer kit work for a CS17 or is something better available?

[Ken_Potts]

  I don't think that one will do the job.  Hopefully someone else will chime in with "I've got one of those - It works great!"

  I found a trailer (thanks Mike!) that was new-surplus for a 14 foot skiff.  It cost me $800 (no assembly required).  If you look for a trailer for a little bass-boat it will probably balance out nicely.  Power boats for lake fishing are everywhere and they are heavier at the stern because of the big outboard (hence the 14' powerboat vs the 17' sailboat).  If you call anyone and tell them you're looking for a trailer for a 17 foot sailboat they'll tell you they'd be happy to build one for $2500 but if you call around and say you just inherited a 14' aluminum jon boat without a trailer you'll find what you need at a good price.  When the trailer sales person hears "sail boat" they think you've got a 1000 lb keel and a deep draft.  It's not their fault - There are just a lot more power skiffs out there than there are sailing skiffs.

  I think the CS17 weighs about 450 pounds so look for a jon boat trailer that can handle that weight.  You might have to move the axle forward a bit and add a keel roller or two but that's pretty easy to do once you've got the boat finished and sitting on the trailer.

[Ken_Potts]

If you're anywhere near Central North Carolina I'd be happy to show you my trailer setup (we could sail too, if you want...)

[Oyster]

The trailer kit is an absurb price and you can do much better. Of course Location is the key since different areas yields different brands and costs. In reply to the issue of john boat trailers, the size of tires are important for over the road safety even though folks can get by with the smaller ones. Normally I would never consider anything less than 12 inch tires for a variety of trips both local and long distance.

[Ken_Potts]

  Good point, Mr Oyster - Larger tires don't turn as fast for a given road speed (less heat, less wear, etc).  Every time I see a trailer on the highway with tiny little tires I try to make sure we've got an empty lane between us.  ;D

  There were a few changes I made to the trailer I bought.  I added bearing buddies (which, come to think of it, I need to check) and a jack.  I think I remember Graham suggesting that the weight of the boat be kept on the keel rollers and the bunks are there for balance.  The trailer I got was pretty adjustable so I was able to move the axle and the bow post thingy to accommodate the CG of my boat.

  At this point I've got things set up so I can push the boat off the trailer and recover it with the winch without getting the axle wet (that idea was definitely Graham's).

[ecgossett]

If you're anywhere near Central North Carolina I'd be happy to show you my trailer setup (we could sail too, if you want...)

I'd be happy to do a road trip sometime! I'm in St. Marys GA. but it would be a fun weekend trip with family. My last trip was to see a Hobie 16' in Florida with Hydroplanes...

[ecgossett]

http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/boa/1101070322.html

Here's a trailer that might work...

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_1063_1063

This is actually a good deal since we have a brand new Northern Warehouse nearby... free shipping... But, not sure this trailer will work.

Oh and after looking around at different prices for marine Okoume it is cheaper to order the kit from B&B.

[Oyster]

The  used trailer has 13 inch tires. If the running gear is fine and the trailer has a current registration, grab that one. In Florida, I don't think that they require titles for boat trailers. But make sure that its currently papered. Many trailers suffer the disease of lost paperwork and is hard to obtain for those in some states. If you can get Graham to cut you a kit today, I will be in the Jacksonville area over the weekend leaving tommorrow and will transport it to you.

[ecgossett]

I attached a Excel CS17 estimated cost list...

Please let me know if I am missing anything or on the wrong track for a few of the parts.. Most of it's from research on the forum.

Right now I'm looking at 3969.15 for building...

[ecgossett]

Marine Hydrocore?

Does anyone have any experience with this?? Would it be a good substitute for Okoume?

Is there a way to minimize high quality finish plywood, and use more pine marine plywood?

[DISTELTK]

I built a Birder II with Okoume and a BRS 15 with Meranti Hydracor.

This is a little lower in cost and a bit heavier.

I had some delamination with some of mine after the boat had been sailed a while.

I had coated the plywood with epoxy and several coats of paint. I think it was a bad sheet.

I talked with the supplier and got no help since the boat had been already used.

I have fixed the problem by cutting out a section of the outer layer and filling with thickened epoxy.  I have not any problem since.  The BRS doesn't have the butterfly bow and the bending in my boat was not a problem.

Tom D  BRS 15  Birder II 

[Hirilonde]

Is there a way to minimize high quality finish plywood, and use more pine marine plywood?

A couple of things need clarifying first.  I don't think anyone even makes a pine plywood.  There is pine veneer plywood, but core layers aren't pine.  They are fir, poplar and several others. You are probably referring to fir marine plywood.  Okoume isn't a finish plywood.  It is very smooth, and the outer layers can be very pretty when varnished, but it is intended as a structural marine plywood.  The high standards of BS 1088 plywood assure these structural standards, the cosmetic properties are incidental.

You can use anything you want to build a boat.  I would never waste all my efforts on junk material.  I definitely have more time than money, but my time still has value, and I want the results to be worthy of it.  And from what I have seen, even the brand new novice woodworkers participating in this forum have created boats worthy of the best materials. 

You have to make your own decision.  Some people, myself included, have to learn things the hard way.

[ecgossett]

I was worried about some of the cuts and joining methods..... The only saws I have access to are a table saw, jig saw, and a 7-1/4" Skilsaw... I do have a couple of hand saws and planned on using them for the finer cuts.

On http://www.roguepaddler.com/cs20c.htm he did scarfing and I don't know if this is the easiest way to go.