anchor weight

[Guest wwbaginski]

what's recommended weight of an anchor for BRS/CS-17? Another question is the model: my choice for sandy Polish sea coast  is below, but should I better go for 5 kg?

http://www.szopeneria.pl/index.php?products=product&prod_id=2279

sands mainly, but from time to time the boat will cruise over rocky bottom of Finland waterways...

[Greg Luckett]

Check out this link:  http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=341&familyName=Danforth+Anchors

It has a nice chart for sizing this anchor: Danforth.  If you back up in the link to the other anchor type you will find similar charts.

I carried two or three anchors on my Catalina 22 and on my Laguna Balboa 24.  Both boats were a lot heavier than your boat is.  I also had 15 to 20 feet of chain.  This allowed a smaller anchor and would hold much, much better in the sand, rock, or mud.  I used a 9 LB Danforth for lunch hook, the 14 LB one for sandy bottoms, and my main hook is an achor like you referenced, called a Claw, weighing about 16 Lbs, with 20 feet of chain, then 150 ft of rode.  I needed to anchor in 50 foot depths (near shore) out on Lake Michigan.  Out more than a mile or so, only a sea anchor helped slow the drift.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13754&familyName=Lewmar+Horizon+Claw+Anchor

for the claw.

Hope this helps.

[wkisting]

The 4lb. Fortress (aluminum) danforth-style anchor (model IX-7, I think) should be adequate for 90% of your anchoring (lunch hook, etc.) if you use at least 6' of chain to help it set and use a scope of 7:1 or better (7 feet of rope for every 1 foot of water depth you anchor in. It rides very nicely on the bow roller we installed on our CS20, and sets very well because the aluminum flukes are noticeably sharper than the typical danforth style. Pricey, but worth the cost for such a light, easy-to-handle, and good-setting anchor.

I'd recommend a second, heavier anchor (15-20 lbs.) for "heavy-weather" anchoring in winds higher than 20 knots or tall, steep waves. I haven't anchored in those conditions with our little Fortress anchor, but I suspect it could work loose in those kinds of conditions.

[Steve Day]

If you use a Fortress anchor, make sure you use the mud palms on it and that you use the recommended angle setting for the conditions. You will have a lot better holding using their recommendations.

I use 30' of chain on my 40' boat, just to make sure. My primary anchor is a claw type with 30' of chain and I only use the Fortress as a back-up (with the 30' of chain), or for the occasional two-point mooring.

I realize this is for my "big boat," but the principle still applies for the CS-17 and other smaller boats.

Steve

[Tom Lathrop]

These are "little" boats in terms of anchor needs.  I have used a 2 1/2 or 3 lb Danforth on boats this size for 40 years and never had a problem with holding.  Of course most of my anchoring has been in mud or a fairly soft bottom but some has been in fairly hard clay.  I use a 9 lb Danforth on a 24' powerboat and take along a 11 lb Bruce for extended trips where I don't know what kind of bottom we will run into.

A bit of chain is always good but I never use any on small racing sailboats because of weight issues.  On a 22' keelboat I use a 9 lb Danforth and a 12 pounder on a 30 footer with a 16 tucked away for when needed.  For hard bottoms, more weight is called for.  In Carolina bottoms I have had a simple Danforth hold much better than big expensive CQR's.  If the anchor will penetrate the bottom, the main thing for holding is fluke area and angle, plus scope of course.  I try to get the High Tensile  Danforths when they are available in the size I need.  Some of the Danforth copies are junk and I think the Fortress is overhyped. 

Once got stuck on someone else's O'Day 25 in a northeaster at Cape Lookout with a little 9 lb Danforth. I tied in all the rode plus jib sheets for more scope and it held all night. 

These discussions always seem to get toward heavier and bigger anchors and more and more chain.  A boat like the CS17 and smaller just don't put a lot of stress on an anchor.  They get in the way and are hard to store.

[wkisting]

Totally agree with Tom here, except for the lack of chain (which depends on where you anchor). You can use a Danforth style without chain, but we found two issues: (1) the anchor sets noticeably better with a length of chain to help pull and set it at a steeper angle as you back down; (2) in sharp rocky areas, the rope can slice through where it attaches to the anchor and cause your anchor to be lost (chain prevents this). So if you forego the chain for weight reasons, but you're in an area with sharp rocky bottom (like some areas of the Great Lakes), I would still use at least a foot of chain between the anchor and the rope.

Also, a qualification: The folks at West Marine tell me the 4 lb. Danforth anchor will hold a boat like the CS even in heavy-weather conditions, but there are a lot of folks out there who will tell you that you should always use a heavier anchor for that, hence my recommendation of a second, 15-20 lbs. anchor. We personally don't carry one because we have no need to anchor in heavy conditions, or if we did, we would be awake on board to notice and deal with anchor-drag problems. If I was sleeping aboard in a high current situation, I might consider a heavier anchor for safety reasons, but I really don't think it is necessary for our purposes. The 4 lb. Fortress is a delight and very well made. [Edit to add: Steve is correct about using the mud palms (which can be left on permanently) and selecting the recommended setting angle.]

[Tom Lathrop]

Wes,

I think that the 2 1/2, 3 & 4 lb Danforths may be the same anchor rated by different suppliers and that is what I have on lapwing.  Can't disagree on the chain either but if you find a rock around the coast of North Carolina, you can be sure that someone brought it here.

I can't imagine any situation where I might need or use a 15 to 20 lb anchor on a CS 17 or 20.  Anything that might conceivably bring on the need for such an anchor will find the the boat driven ashore long before it gets to that.

My main complaint against a large Danforth or Fortress on a CS is where to store it out of the way.

[wkisting]

I agree, Tom. I've never felt the need for more anchor now that I've seen how well the little 4-pounder holds. Ours rides very nicely on the bow roller, so never feels in the way. Just thought I should include that suggestion about heavier anchors because the 'net is full of folks who feel passionately that a true "storm" anchor should be measured by the length of boat, rather than its mass; in which case, the 15-20 lbs. range would be the norm. But I certainly agree that it would be overkill for a CS. On the other hand, I'm of the mind that overkill is a good thing if you're going to sleep aboard and may not notice drag issues until you wake to the sound of grinding wood and 'glass. 

Since he mentioned rocky bottoms in his first post, I thought I should add that qualifier about the chain. In GA, our lake is all mud, clay, and weeds at the bottom with some fields of (smooth) rock. We do use chain for easier anchor setting, but I'm thinking about removing it since the chain tends to scuff the deck as the anchor drops over. On the other hand, our local West Marine has some new coated chain that has a very high quality coating (the best I've seen on chain) and is plasticized enough not to scuff, so I may try that also.

[Tom Lathrop]

Wes,

Proper caution is rarely responsible for accidents and the best caution is not to be out there when the fit hits the shan.  Of course, we have both seen summer storms of very high wind, rain and hail blow up in a flash on these lakes.

I learned quickly not to risk an expensive anchor in Lake Lanier or Lake Hartwell and I imagine that Clark's Hill Lake (now Russell or Thurmond I guess) is about the same situation where you sail.  Stumps,trees or buildings left in place when they built these dams have claimed untold numbers of anchors.  On race committee boats we mostly used several mushroom anchors because they did not get hung very often.  Many have found their boat well captured in the top of an old tree with falling water.  At Lanier, the biggest problem was anchoring to run the starting or finish line for a race because of the depth of 100 to 150 feet.  Otherwise for overnighting we would drop a heavy (and cheap) Navy style anchor off the stern and tie the bow to a tree at the steep banks. 

Losing 200' or more of line, chain and expensive anchor to the monster could be  instructive if repeated very often.

[Greg Luckett]

Tom,

You might try using cinder blocks for anchoring during the races, like a mooring set up, with another bouy to another (attached) disconnect line.  That way you could release the rode if needed.  Just a thought.  I have never needed that but we do lose our race markers in storms sometimes, here on Lake Michigan.  We set them out in the late spring, then recover them in the early fall.  The committee boat uses a claw anchor in water between 50 to 60 foot, on the lake shelf, for the start/finish lines.

[Tom Lathrop]

Greg,

The only races I work with these days are in coastal water with a soft or sandy bottom so the trusty Danforth works fine.  We gave up semi permanent race markers because either storms or fishing trawlers kept tearing them out.  Even Government marks get ripped out by barges or big yachts.

Concrete is a very poor anchor, not only because it has nothing that can pierce the bottom but because it has little weight in the water.  Concrete weighs about 140 lbs per cu ft so it weighs only about 77 lbs submerged.  Cinder blocks are even worse because they are even less dense.  Concrete makes an acceptable permanent anchor since it's cheap and can be very large.

[PAR]

I've found in this size boats, as has been noted, you don't need much by way of an anchor. Pretty much any hook will do. If it starts to drag, give it more scope, if it still drags toss over another anchor and dangle off of twins.

Unless you are doing extensive cruising or traveling and need a few different anchor configurations, to suit changing bottom conditions, a couple of small Danforths will get you through most anything you'd be willing to survive on boats this size.

Chain is a weight penalty that isn't necessary. If you must have chain, 3' to 8' leaders is all you need.

[Scott Dunsworth]

My 2 cents

I would rather have two small anchor that could be stored away easy on a boat as light as a coresound.

I have a 8lb westmarine danforth type with a boat lengths of 1/4 inch chain we use on our belhaven. I always use it when anchoring for the night. Overkill I know but if I would break loose during the night on the Ohio river we could very well get run down by the barge traffic. I also carry a very junk 4lb ( according to Graham and I agree) danforth type that has the slip shaft on it. We use it for lunch or for a beach anchor.

I had a weekend a month ago where we had 20 to 40 mph winds along with the barge traffic that made sleeping hard. I got up a few times and pulled a few feet of line in because I was afraid the bow chalks would wear thru the line. It did shine the bronze up nicely.

Scott

[Guest wwbaginski]

Very interesting disscussion and lots of useful info on an anchor question. Also a  chain question - I appreciate it. There's relatively big storage space both in the bow and aft of my  boat. Generally speaking , Bay River Skiff 17 is "friendly oriented " to carry a lot of stuff. Well, next step is to choice oars: 2,7 m or 3,0 m long. Both lengths belong to the BRS's width category. Thanks again.

[wkisting]

Tom, I appreciate what you're saying and again, I completely agree with you for our circumstances, but unless I'm mistaken, he's sailing in the waters off Poland and Finland, which I assume may be very different. I feel obliged not merely to recommend my own personal choice (the 4 lbs. Danforth, the only anchor I carry), but also to mention that there are many folks who feel differently. I'm not familiar with Polish or Finnish waters, so I can't intelligently compare them with the NC/SC/GA coasts and lakes. I just feel an ethical obligation to mention that lots of folks would consider a single 4 lbs. anchor inadequate (specifically, folks who believe that an anchor should be sized to boat length, not mass). I disagree, but I still feel compelled to mention "the other side's view" to someone asking for advice.

I use my Danforth to tie off to the beach more than anything else. But otherwise, I drop anchor in places I know to be clear of the snag hazards you mentioned (which is a primary reason I installed a sonar transducer on my CS20). There's comparatively little risk of snag if you scan quickly for a flat, semi-hard bottom on the sonar as I now do. Even then, I'm anchoring in coves with only about 10-25 feet of water, and I'm using only 50 - 100' of line at most (I only carry 120' rode aboard), which has been more than adequate. But I wouldn't feel right recommending a low 4:1 scope or such a light anchor to someone sailing in completely different waters (foreign to me) without adding a qualification about safety. And since I haven't yet anchored in conditions over 18 knots of wind or waves over 2 feet, I didn't want to claim that the Fortress anchor can handle more than that. Yes, the West Marine guys claim it will hold securely in "much wilder conditions", as I noted, but they're not on the boat with me; they're just selling an anchor and may never have tested it themselves. It may be the case that a 4 lbs. Danforth is plenty of anchor--as I believe it is--but what's the harm of adding a few cautions about competing viewpoints and the advantages of chain?

[Edit for typo.]

[Charlie Jones]

On the other hand, our local West Marine has some new coated chain that has a very high quality coating (the best I've seen on chain) and is plasticized enough not to scuff, so I may try that also.

I have had three experiences with plastic coated chain- Please, please don't get the crap. In my opinion it should be outlawed.

Also the plastic coated anchors. We had a friend with one of those- a Danforth, and the two of us , standing knee deep in water could not force the flukes to dig in- the plastic coating simply stopped them.

On the chain- I saw two separate instances of chain being almost rusted through, under that plastic coating, and you could not tell until we sliced the coating off. The third instance was when the tide reversed and the coated chain acted like a lever- it refused to bend around and simply levered the anchor out of the bottom sideways. Fortunately this was during the daytime so we saw it.

As for anchor weight, that depends. On the little tri, we use a 4 pound Danforth, with 6 feet of chain and 100 feet of nylon. But we anchor in very shallow water, or beach the boat, so that's all we need.

On the bigger boat, the Meridian 25, we have a 22 pound Claw with 75 feet of G4 1/4 inch chain and 150 feet of 1/2 nylon as our normal anchor. I don't do "lunch hooks".

We also carry 3 other complete anchors and rodes aboard WHEN CRUISING. But that's an entirely different thing.

[wkisting]

What you're saying about the coated chain makes sense, Charlie. I had some similar concerns about the rust issue because stainless needs to "breathe" or it loses its corrosion resistance... which is why those vinyl coated stainless lifelines also tend to break suddenly... because water gets trapped in the vinyl coating but the air can't get to the stainless to help it maintain its anti-corrosive properties. (Not sure how the chemical process works, but my dad is a steel fabricator and I've seen several instances of oxygen-deprived stainless that has corroded.)

I didn't think about the "levering" effect, but now that you mention it, the coating does make the chain quite stiff and would certainly reduce how freely the chain can swing around. I'm reluctant to remove the short chain lead from my rode because I've seen three anchors (two weren't mine ) lost to sharp rocks chafing through the line in the past. I suppose I could make a small pad on the foredeck that would prevent scuffing also. What I've been doing instead (which defeats the convenient purpose of a bow roller) is letting the anchor ride in the roller, but removing the rode when not in use. When I anchor, I go forward, shackle the rode to the anchor, and lower it over carefully until the chain is off the deck. Then I let her drop and back down to set.

[Charlie Jones]

Used to be boats would have a sacrificial wood pad between the bow roller and the cleat, so the chain/rode would slide on that. Some even had troughs of wood, lined with metal.

I'd think a thin piece of wood set as a scrape pad, would be a nice addition- and seamanly too

Of course, on Tehani, we just repaint the area with non-skid periodically.

[Tom Lathrop]

Ah, this is getting to be a weighty issue ;D

Anchoring in coves has its own hazards as many have found out while drifting back toward the big water.  By its nature a cove may have fairly steep bottom contour toward both sides of the cove.  What appears to be a scope of 4:1 or more can actually be nothing of the kind at the anchor location and a bit of wind off the shore can just lift the anchor off the steeply sloped bank.  That is the main reason we usually anchored by the stern in coves with the bow tied to trees on shore on Lake Lanier. 

That has nothing much to do with anchor weight but is important in some locations.  Wes's depth sounder can give good warning of this possibility.  Local conditions are everything in anchoring.  A bottom thickly covered with unrotted leaves can be virtually impervious to anything other than perhaps a big heavy fisherman anchor.  We all carry one of those don't we ;D

Ditto the experience with plastic coated chain.  Galvanized proof coil is the thing.  I think that is what it's called.  I do carry chain leaders on boats larger than the CS types.  The best all round advice is to look at what the knowledgeable people in your area are using on similar boats.

[wkisting]

Well, in GA right now we have such a drought that what qualifies as a "cove" now on Clarks Hill/Thurmond Lake may well have been called "the middle of the lake" before.    It's been in drought-conditions as long as we've lived here (moved down last July '07), so we don't know what the norm is, but right now, we've had some really good opportunities to identify bottom conditions in various areas of the lake that would normally be too deep to see. It's quite amazing, actually, how low the water levels are at various parts of the lake... nearly 14 or 16' below the normal erosion line in some places! But it gives us the chance to learn what the contours of the lake really look like so that we will know it very well when the levels go back up.

I think our local sailing club is exasperated, though, because most of the docks and launching ramps are high and dry now, and any new rainwater we get goes right over the dam because they're already operating below the "minimum permissible" Federal flow levels and therefore are obligated to pass any additional rainwater on down to the lower communities that depend on waterflow from the Savannah River.

In our CS we aren't bothered at all because there's no need to fear shallow water.