Sail location on CS 20

[MickG]

I have a CS 20( #91) and I have trouble seing forward whe I am sitting on the lee side. The mizzen sail is in the way. I know that I could sit to weather, but sometimes the boat is not balanced correctly, depending on wind velocity. It seems that the pictures that I see on this forum show that the bottom or foot of the mizzen sail is higher than mine.  Does any one have a spec for the distance from the mast partner to the bottom of the mizzen saillat the tack. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Mick

[paul_stewart]

Mick,

Here is one quick example of a CS20 sail-plan view (slightly from astern). 

Is your mizzen mast roughly 20' long or a little longer (~ same length as hull)? 

Update....

   mizzen mast:  20' 9.5"   

   mizzen sail:    15' 10.5" luff,    7' 11.0" foot,    16' 3.0" leech.

   main mast:     20' 2.5"

   main sail:       17' 6.0"  luff,     9'  0.0"  foot,    18' 4.0" leech.

(main mast pivots in tabernacle)

Sails are hoisted to top of masts.

[wkisting]

I have some of that problem, too, Mick. I took measurements for you: The bottoms of my sails begin 8" above deck in the case of the main (main mast is 21' 2.5" tall), and 16" above the thwart in the case of the mizzen (mizzen mast is 20' 0.5" tall), so my normal view is certainly obstructed by the mizzen (and I have to duck noticeably when tacking). On the plus side, this means less heeling pressure on the sails, but I have occasionally wished my masts were 6 - 12" taller so that the sails could be raised higher in light winds for better visibility. That said, I tend to sit just aft of the thwart while sailing, so I can lean forward to look past the front of the mizzen fairly easily, or duck low to look under it.

Paul's picture looks as though the foot of each sail is noticeably higher than mine, but that may be a plan sheet variation. I came across at least three different sets of measurements for the masts due to changes that Graham has made to sail size or shape over time. I used the most updated sheet to establish where the foot of each sail would begin (so I think my height above deck and thwart for each sail is done according to plan), but my sails are slightly taller than normal, so my masts may be a bit taller overall than others.

[Terry Dunn]

Interesting.

On #36 my masts are both 22'. I have standard sails. Lots of room to look under when they are raised to the top. On the Texas 200 at one point we had two reefs in both sails and had the main brushing the deck. Other times without reefs we had the sails pretty low for stability. After we passed where the ferry crossed in the Coupus Christi shipping channel we about ran into a dock because we had the sails low and forgot we couldn't see through them. After that we paid better attention to the blind side when we had the sails lower to the deck.

[paul_stewart]

Mick,  Does this help you any...?

Our mizzen mast on #103 is

    2.5" shorter than Terry's mizzen mast.

    9.0" taller than Wes's mizzen mast. 

Wes, in the photo your mizzen sail looks like it could have been raised another 3-4 inches closer to the top of the mast.

As ya'll noted,  the position of the mizzen sail on the mizzen mast can vary (higher or lower),  and then there is reefing......

[wkisting]

Yep, I've seen pictures of some CS boats with the sleeve sails beginning what looks like almost 24" above deck (compared with the meager 8" above deck where my main begins). So there are definitely variations in some plan set measurements, which Graham confirmed and sent me an updated sheet for during my build. But I think Terry's 22' masts would probably be ideal, since my setup is just barely enough to get decent tension in the main sail's luff. On my mizzen, I do have a little extra wiggle room, so I could conceivably raise it about 3 inches higher than the 16" I mentioned above, as Paul noticed. My mizzen is shorter than my main simply because Graham told me to cut it off wherever was convenient, and at the time I didn't consider the advantage of having a lot of extra length on it. At 21', 2.5" my main mast is as long as I could make it with the tubing Graham sent me (while still honoring the 9" of overlap required at each tubing join according to the plans).

By the way, in the picture I posted, you'll notice the main sail just comfortably clears my Chihuahua's head. She weighs 4 lbs. and stands only about 12" tall, so that gives you an idea how close the main comes to the deck.

[Gordy Hill]

I had a lovely window in the main of my CS17 and really liked it. It stayed unwrinkled because I had sleeve luffs and stored the sail wrapped around the mast.

After having the window I can't imagine sailing without one.

[MickG]

I guess I am still very much confused. I see several measurements on the lenghts of the mast and the luff measurement. What is correct. It seems that I remember someone a few months talking about a bimini top on a CS 20. With my boat I don't see how this could be done?????????

The idea of a window in the sail was suggested. I have raced Lightning s for over 25 years and we always had windows in the main and sometimes in the jib. If one rolls the sails paralel to the foot, the window will not wrinkel.

However, this does not answer my questions concerning the correct specs for the masts and sails, particulary the luff.

Again, any help would be appreciated. By the way, my sails have battens and are on a sail track. Thank you,  Mick

[Terry Dunn]

I have a bimini on my CS 20. I have standard sails, no battens. No stay sail. With the 22' mast my mizzen clears the bimini. We have not used the bimini much and I don't have a picture under way with the bimini up. Here is one with the bimini folded down.

[MickG]

Whisting:  Thanks to you and all the others that have replied to my questions. I see that the picture you have posted is of your CS 20. May I ask what the color is? It looks to be identical to mine, along with the natural finished decks. I will try to post a picture of my boat as soon as I figure out how to do it. I am afraid my masts are too short (19 ft), but I did not build my boat and don't know what the plans call for. I also had a problem with the mizzen sail not setting right and I have  found out that the attachment point for the snooter is aprox 12 inches too high  although it is the correct distance from the heel of the mast. If the mast were 20ft the sail would set correctly without moving the attachment point.  Mick

[Doug Cameron]

The CD that comes with the plans for the CS20 has pictures of the construction of the dodger on the CS 17 that Graham used in his first Everglades Challenge.  It essentially protects from spray when you are crashing along through waves.  I am planning something similar for my CS20, but with clear "windows" on the sides and up front to improve vision.  It will also allow some room to sleep  with your feet up under the forward deck, and this is improved if you make forward floorboards that can double as extensions of the seat to the centerboard trunk.

[Designer]

I am sorry for the confusion on the CS20 mast lengths. CS20 hull #1 had sail tracks with battens and roach with what I hoped would be the standard rig. A local builder built a CS20 and wanted to race us in the Great Race. He wanted to make his own sails with lacing instead of tracks and do away with battens. I felt uncomfortable about racing him with a bigger rig so I drew up a rig with taller masts so that the roachless sails would have the same sail area. After that we had two rigs. Brent wanted more power in his boat so he got a bigger rig, I have forgotten now how many slight rig variations there have been.

I have done newer and better spar drawings down the line and even I have had difficulty keeping them straight. I have standardized the rigs now (I hope) so that we can eliminate the confusion. If any CS20 builders are going to use the sail track rig, get up with me to make sure that you have the the right spar plan.

Mick, I don't know which of the variables you have but as Ray said, you need to lengthen the mast.

[paul_stewart]

Graham,   Thanks for the comments.  Always interested in hearing your insights.

I have standardized the rigs now...

If you establish a "standard" (which I would interpret as being optimal in the designer's expert opinion),  I would be very interested in knowing the specifications; particularly the mast length and luff length.  I think this would be interesting to know even if the each spec were stated as a range.   

We are very happy with our mast and sail configuration, so my interest is a matter of general learning and knowledge about the CS20   --how does the designer of the CS20 see it.

I would guess that other current CS20 sailors would also be interested in a posting of the "standard".    Would the standard depend at all on track/sleave/laced,  use of battens,  or roachiness of the leech?

--Paul

^{Standard ?}

   ^{mizzen mast:  __' __"}   

   ^{mizzen sail:    __' __"  luff,     __'  __" foot,      __' __" leech.}

   ^{main mast:     __' __"}

   ^{main sail:       __' __"  luff,     __'  __" foot,      __' __" leech.}

[MickG]

Ray and Graham:  I do think my masts should be longer, but how long??? The idea is great except I don't believe that I have the expertise to make the additions. The track would have to be longer and the entire top of the mast changed. That is why I had the boat built.My masts were made with internal halyards. Any ideas.  Thanks, Mick

[wkisting]

Mick, in a previous post, were you asking what color my boat is? (Wasn't sure if it was directed to me.) If so, our deck is bright-finished Okoume with mahogany trim pieces in certain areas: framing the hatches, around the exterior of the cockpit coaming, for the thwart and bowsprit/anchor roller. The hull is painted white of the Interlux VC Performance paint brand (only color available in VC Performance as far as I know). The interior is the "Whidbey White" color of Systems 3 WR LPU paint brand.