Help I've messed up

[davidpm]

I'm pretty much all together now I'm starting to fair. Attached is a picture. I didn't worry about runs because I figured a quick hit with the random orbibal and they would be gone. Wrong

Next time I'll mask off.

But what do I do now. I have to do one coat of epoxy before using the thickend epoxy to cover the tape and fair.

Do I have to grind off the drips or will the fairing and other coats of epoxy make the drips go away?

[Ken_Potts]

   Hi David,

   You have four options that I know of (real boatbuilders will disagree and you should listen to them).  The picture shows what I was looking at when I sanded.  The worst case is you'll have a boat that looks like mine and sails like mine (not really a bad thing in my opinion).

1. Longboard (not ROS).  Knock the high spots down.  What you're showing appears really bad because the high spots are sanded and the low spots are not.  The difference in height between the two may be measurable in the thousandths of an inch but the color contrast is really shocking.

2. Fill in.  Build the low spots up.

3. A combination of the two

4. build a boat with an ugly finish like mine and enjoy the sailing.

I understand that option #4 is not acceptable to the great majority of builders so forget about the visual impact of high-spots (sanded) and the low spots (shiny).  Close your eyes and run your hand over the surface.  You'll feel irregularities but they won't be nearly as shocking as the visual contrast between the ares that has been scuffed by the sander and the areas that haven't.  If you longboard the surface you should be able to get it pretty fair.  If you'd like to add a coat of unthickened epoxy to fill the valleys remember to scuff up the shiny spots with sandpaper (just paper in hand, not longboard) to get a good bond.

Now that I'm thinking of it a better way to go might be a scraper.  Scrape those high spots down before you try any other of my dumb suggestions.

Don't worry - You'll fix it.

[BillBrush]

I haven't done boats, but my experience with autobody work and bondo would lead me to believe that subsequent coats are going to magnify the problem rather than alleviate it.  I'd slap on some coarse sand paper and take them off.

Bill

[Tom Lathrop]

I was about to jump in but Ken eventually got to it.  A scraper is probably the best thing to work on those runs with.  That is what I go to to level out a messed up area.  Run the scraper along the line of the runs to keep from working on the areas between runs.  Adjust the pressure on the scraper to only cut away the high spots.  It would be hard to avoid over sanding the low areas, even with a long board.  

Bill is right that just trying to add another coating will not take care of the problem.

First rule of epoxy work:  "neatness counts".  That was drummed into me by a hated English teacher when she graded my smudged papers.  She was right, of course and the squeegee is a neat eraser for epoxy.  Now, repeat this 100 times before bedtime.  "Soft epoxy is easier to remove than cured epoxy".

I got the note that Ray had posted while I was typing.  That is because he doesn't proof read his typing as much as me ;D ;D :P

Anyway, I'm also cringing about using a good block plane for this job.  A good hand scraper is a good tool.  For this kind of work, I don't bother with the rolled edge.  Just sharpen the edge with two sharp 90 degree edges.  For rough work like this, I just hold the scraper perpendicular to the side of the grinder wheel.  That makes a much tougher edge for rough work.  I just know someone is cringing about that : :

[davidpm]

Well just as I suspected. But thanks for the encouragement.

That's why I thought I'd try a dinghy before thinking about anything bigger.

At least it's not too big. 

[lbrewer]

I think, as Ray said, we can all relate.  I know I've certainly seen the same thing before.  I use a combination of scraper and sanding to remedy it when I haven't been as neat as Tom suggests.  Happens all too often working by myself and trying to get more accomplished than I have allotted time for.  I found wetting out the tape before on a piece of plastic, squeegeeing out the excess, then applying it to the hull reduces the runs.  Then a once over to squeegee any drips  and a quick look see after 30 or 40 minutes to catch the sneaky ones will reduce a lot of sanding.

Mark Twains quote that " A man learns something by carrying a cat around by it's tail he can learn no other way!"

Mark Twain was such a smart a**.  But usually right!

[John Burritt]

I'll ditto what Tom says re: using a scraper.  A number of stores (Lowe's, etc.) sell carbide blade scrapers w/ replacable blades.  These hold an edge better than a card scraper, but necessitate a little more care to not gouge the wood w/ a corner.  A long coarse rasp also works (pattern-maker's rasp?).  The convex side is more controllable.  Whatever course you take, don't dally.  The longer you wait, the harder the epoxy gets.

[Howard]

Some observations from someone who has been down the same path....

When you realize you have the runs  : , and the epoxy is still green, you can do a lot with a sharp metal tool...card scraper (there is a knack to using these and once you learn the right thickness and how to flex them...they do work well), but surform planes, block planes, spoke shaves, etc. all work too.....again, when it's soft and green, meaning within 48 hours. At the same time, it won't sand worth crap....gums up the paper.

After it cures.....meaning about the same time a chemical bond is no longer reliable for subsequent coats, you are now into sanding it, both for smoothness and to give it some tooth for mechanical bonds of subsequent coats. But by now, it's hard enough to sand better. I have two random orbital sanders and both of them can be fitted with a hose to the shop vac to suck up the dust. Keeps it out of my face and it keeps the paper clean and cutting longer.

If you follow the theory, you have to sand it all down to a uniform height, or no mechanical bond will happen for subsequent coats. Or alternatively, if you scraped it while green, and a chemical bond is still going to happen, you could go at it with fairing compound. For vertical surfaces, that's a delicate mix between something that's going to slump and something too dry to stick or that will fair smooth. I use drywall mud trowels to spread fairing compound. Later on, thin coats of epoxy, but if it remains vertical, you always fight with the runs.

Which leads me to the final observation....it's always easier to work epoxy on something horizontal. Pre-coat all panels you can and even for the sides on a Spindrift, you can lean the boat on it's side and coat two sides at once.....i.e., starboard outside and port inside. Let gravity work to level it out.

[SUKIE]

David,

Like Ray, I too think this is a very funny thread. Because, as noted by all others, we have ALL been there. I am a hard learner, so have the perfect tool for just this problem. It's called a Shinto Wood Rasp and I absolutely depend on it, especially for those nasty epoxy drips. When worknig on a flat spot I remove the handle, wrap duct tape on the ends, and drips are removed in seconds. I got mine from Newfound Woodworks (Newfound.com) because I can drive there, but they are also available online from japanwoodworker.com and others. Good Luck!

Sukie

[Charlie Jones]

Sukie- you are correct- that is an amazing tool. I fully intend to get one one day, when I have some extra bucks.

You can also get them from CLC online.

But I must reiterate, as others have- it's ALWAYS easier to get rid of runs while the epoxy is uncured- just wipe 'em off and either re-squeegee, or re-roll, which ever. If I'm working over a surface that has once been epoxied, I use either lacquer thinner or alcohol as a wash once wiped off.

Just go back to the job 20 or 30 minutes or so after applying, and check. Wipe as needed.

Work clean- saves MANY hard hours.

[davidpm]

Thanks for all tips and sympathy. Kind of like having the flue. If you never had it you could never appreciate what a pain it can be.

I got rid of the drips tonite. Don't think I'll mention how as I donn't want my username suspended but now I'm on too new disasters.

[PAR]

When this happens you have two choices the way I see it, try to be neat about removal (plus take way more time then necessary) and then do it more carefully or just saying "screw it", and grinding out the offending area(s) knowing you're in for more then a penny now.

Try as you might, being careful when you have major runs like that is usually more trouble the it's worth. Pull out a grinder, belt sander or other tool of heavy material removal. Try to level the surface as best as you can as you knock off the runs, but don't go crazy, you're going to dig into the low spots. Knowing this, you can quickly remove the runs.

Skim coat the whole area with fairing compound. Use the notched trowel method if you like. Let cure then long board the thing back to where it belongs.

Tom, I had a shiver when you mentioned how you sharpen you scrapers for rough work. Thanks for that mental image.

And can some one tell the yankees to keep this cold crap to themselves this winter, I got work to do.

[davidpm]

What is the notched trowel method?

You have to coat with one coat of epoxy to seal after sanding before fairing right?

[Ken_Potts]

David,

The notched trowel thing is a work-saver (though I know it only in theory).  Rather than build up a whole low area with fairing compound then sanding all that stuff back to fair you can use a trowel with triangular notches to build up an area.  Then when you're longboarding the material back to fair you're only cutting the peaks off the triangular rows.  Once the peaks are cut down you can go over the area again with a smooth trowel to fill in the furrows and do some light finish sanding to make a nice fair surface.

I'm not sure how clear that description is.  I haven't tried this method yet but it makes sense to me.  I think I first heard about it from Ray.

Hey Ray - Post some pictures of the process    While you're at it git yerself down here and help me with my insulation before I freeze to death. ;D

[lbrewer]

I haven't tried it either but it makes sense.  Thanks for mentioning it PAR, as I am doing some fairing now as well.

We had had a warm front pass through and outside temps were back in the 60's.

Arrrgh!  Warmer in Maine than in coastal Alabama?! ???  In the thirties last nite and tonite.  Whodathunkit?

[PAR]

It's as cold as my ex-wife's heart Ray. It's about 43 as I write this (around 5 in the morning). Damn cold and very unusual for this time of the year. We should be in the mid 80's during the day and the low 70's at night. Maybe a mid 60's night every once and a while to keep things interesting. We're not going to reach the 70's tomorrow, so how am I going to get epoxy to kick off. Fortunately, the yankee born cold front will pass through and Santa will be ringing a bell in front of Wal Mart wearing shorts, like life is supposed to be. I only have a couple of pairs of long johns, so this better be quick.

Now I know you're laughing, but you've got to remember, we break out the down parkas when it gets into the 50's. Many houses here don't have heating, just an electric wall unit or maybe a fireplace in the main room. Last year I lit up a fire three times and used the heat maybe a dozen times, so to us this cold snap sucks. It does make identifying the snow birds a fair bit easier. They're the ones standing in line at the coffee shop, wearing shorts and flip flops on mornings like this, talking about how nice and "crisp" the weather is. The locals have a wool watch cap pulled down over their ears, wearing a dusty old winter coat, are noticeably shivering and have chapped, purple lips.

[Charlie Jones]

Just talked with Chuck Leinweber from Duckworks. They have ordered the Shintos and will have two types available by weeks end, at less than CLC prices.

The two they'll have are the simple ones, with just the one handle, and the far better ones with a top handle so you can apply downward pressure easily

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/

[Charlie Jones]

Hey Ray- ever BEEN in a Southern state in the wintertime? Like down here on the Texas coast when it hits 41 and a norther is blowing- winds around 30 to 40, misting rain, humidity at as close to 100% as it can get?

You wear that light jacket here then you'll freeze your uh-huh's off ;D

We had friends from the UP, Michigan who came down on their boat for a couple months. Before they came down he asked about winter temps and laughed when I told him it might get into the high 30s, but mostly low 40s in November.  Said " We're from the U.P- 40s is warm to us"

We had a month of great weather and then the first norther blew through!! I went down to the marina to see how they were faring and they had gone to WalMart, bought TWO electric heaters and were shivering in the boat. He told me- "I've never been so cold in my entire LIFE!!!"

So there just might be a valid reason for them wanting "the warmest thing you ;D got". It ain't necessarily the temps that'll get ya- it IS the humidity.

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- I understand- Spent a year in Iceland and we saw snowstorms that piled up ABOVE our second floor barracks windows. One buried the C-54 I flew on- THAT was a fun job, digging the plane out, without damaging the aluminum skin.

A few years ago we had a Christmas Eve snowstorm here. Snowed a foot- they tell me the first measurable snow in over 100 years- here's three pics from that. First two are Christmas Day, third one is New Years Day, 7 days later.

Ruined the bananas by the way- they turned black and fell off >

[PAR]

Sweet God, snow is only good for two things. It's lovely on Christmas morning, with a blaze in the fireplace, the kids outside playing with snow balls and the other occasion is on post cards, depicting some other poor sap experiencing snow. Those are the only times I think snow is useful. I don't want to drive in it. I don't want to work in it. I don't want to shovel out the drive, just to have a plow come by and bury the entrance I worked so hard to clear an hour earlier. I don't want to drive behind someone who doesn't know how to drive in snow. I don't think there is any reason, a reasonable person would desire snow. It does keep beer reasonably cold, but if you have to resort to using a snow bank to keep your beer, then you've got bigger problems to deal with.