Moccasin 2 Journal

[P Doug (WA)]

Tom, reading and looking at you pictures.  I appreciate the time you spend posting this.  Makes me feel like I might be able to build a stitch and glue one of these days. 

[Tom Gomm]

Anybody ever suffer from epoxy sensitivity?  I epoxied the out side of the boat this Saturday and on Sunday I developed a rather painful (itchy) rash  .  I still need to complete this boat, but I need to find a way to eliminate the exposure to the epoxy.  Can anyone provide hints or 'best practices' in this area?

[P Doug (WA)]

From what I read on this and other forums the only thing you can do once you develop a sensitivity to epoxy is to cover up.  Don't get it on you and wear a mask, goggles, gloves, long sleeves and long pants.  I haven't had any problems yet and I am trying to be real careful when I'm around it.  Hope you can work around it.  It would really take the fun out of boat building quick. 

[Tom Gomm]

OK...time for an update.  On Saturday, I sanded down the outside of the hull.  I had filled in all of the stitch holes with thickened epoxy.  I then fiberglassed all four seams.  I was on such a good roll that I went ahead and covered the entire outside of the hull with epoxy (using the plastic spreader method).  After a few hours, I mixed up some more epoxy and filled in the taped seams and then applied a second coat of epoxy to the outside of the boat. 

It looked great, but the next morning I woke up with puffy, itchy eyelids and an itchy rash all over especially on my inner elbow, my neck and chest, both eyelids and inbetween my knuckles.  I had no idea what was going on until I researched epoxy sensitivity online.  I went to the doctor and he put me on a steroid and antihistimine to help while I recover.

Monday I temporarily installed the spreader using carriage bolts and self locking nuts.  Today, I was not too itchy so I donned my respirator, goggles, heavy duty rubber gloves and my old Eddie Bauer rain jacket.  I made some thickened epoxy and filleted the edges of the doubler (and sanded for 15 minutes).  The epoxy suit seemed to do the trick....I'll know more tommorrow how well it worked.  When I took it all off though, the inside of the repirator was full of water from perspiration and respiration and I had to turn my rainjacket inside out to dry.....then I drank a lot of water.  I can see that this will make boat building more uncomfortable, but it's better than an itchy rash.

[P Doug (WA)]

Well the boat is looking great even if you may not be.  Sorry you are having this difficulty.  Maybe you could find some of those like paper suits to wear like the asbestos workers wear.  Would not be quite so hot and sweaty and they are throwaway.

[Charlie Jones]

I know it's a stretch at this point, but some people react more to some epoxies that they do to others. You might change brands should you build another boat. Might work, might not. I suspect it's the hardener that causes the reaction by the way.

BIG thing to do is work clean and get showered right after you stop work.

[Ken_Potts]

If I remember the MSDS correctly Charlie's right about the hardener.

I was worried about using colloidal silica as a filler so I downloaded the Material Safety Data Sheet from the West Systems website.  While I was at it I downloaded the MSDS for the resin and the hardener (this was a while back).  I ended up cautious about the filler, not too worried about the resin, and scared of the hardener.

The bad stuff is absorbed not only through lungs etc but through the SKIN.  From what I understand (and I may be wrong) sensitivity to epoxy increases with exposure.  If you're already having a bad reaction try to limit exposure as much as possible (I'm sure I don't need to tell you this).  I like the suggestion of chisels and cabinet scrapers.  When you do need to sand it might help if you wet-sand (that won't help with skin exposure but you won't be breathing the dust).

One of the nasty effects of long term exposure to epoxy was liver damage or failure.  That one caught my eye because I'm already taxing my liver pretty heavily

Don't let me freak you out too much though - Remember there are plenty of professionals who deal with epoxy every day (I'm not one of them).

It's not a bad idea to download the Material Safety Data Sheet from the website of the manufacturer of your particular epoxy.

And above all (despite all my gloom and doom) - Enjoy building that boat.

[Tom Gomm]

Time for another update.  Before I talk about my progress on this project, I want to thank everyone who has answered my questions and so willingly shared information with me as I have worked on this boat.  It has certainly made this project easier having so much help from everyone.   ;D

This weekend I sanded the inside of the boat and then re-filletted around the doubler.  This time, however, I brushed some unthickened epoxy over it and it made the fillet nice and smooth.  I then epoxied the entire inside.....twice.  After this hardened, I flipped the boat over and sanded the outside.  I spent about an hour and a half on that. 

I then cut the keel and beveled the ends.  I chose to make the keel only 8 ft long.  If I had made it longer, it would not have seated flat on the boat (the 'V' starts right where the seam is).  I installed the keel using 3/4 in screws (drilling pilots and countersinking).  To do this, I wetted down the boat where the keel would be installed and the underside of the keel.  Then I had my son put pressure on the keel while I put the screws in from underneath (the boat was upside down).  Once this was complete, I put another layer of fiberglass tape on both ends of the boat and epoxied the entire hull once more.  I have not had much problem with the epoxy rash/itchiness since donning the 'epoxy suit' while working on the boat. 

I purchased paint and primer from West Marine (sea gloss primer and interlux paint).  I also bought some varnish for the gunwales and spreader.  Both the varnish and the paint say to wask the epoxy down with an ammonia and watter solution then sand before applying the finish. 

- Can anyone tell me why they say to clean the epoxy with an ammonia soution?   ???

[Charlie Jones]

The ammonia solution is to get rid of any chance of amine blush. It really doesn't take the ammonia. The Gougeon's used to recommend it but have since stated that just plain water works well.

Of course, the ammonia can't hurt, but I don't use it.

[Hirilonde]

I have always used mild soap (dish soap) and water.  The blush seems very oily, and I was taught to use soap.  But lots of people say plain water is all it takes.  Old habits are hard to break, especially when they have worked well.

[Tom Gomm]

OK next question....

How long must you allow the epoxy to cure before you can paint?

I am using a slow curing hardener, but I live in Florida and it has been between 80 and 90 degrees.  Is 24 hours enough or should the epoxy cure for a week?

[Charlie Jones]

While I'd really prefer longer, I usually wait at least a week.. You can still get some post cure shrinkage after several weeks, but you can only let it sit so long, ya know?

24 hours isn't enough though

[Tom Gomm]

I plan to begin painting this weekend.  Any suggestions or pointers from anyone? 

[Charlie Jones]

;D don't drip the paint ;D

Actually, no, cause Laura won't let me brush or roll paint. She makes me spray it. Claims I'm a klutz with a paint brush and it looks like I painted with a mop:o

So when I begin painting , I always start with the words-

Let us Spray

[Tom Gomm]

Latest update:

I've primed and painted the hull.  I scrubbed down the epoxy on the hull with water (to remove the amine blush) and then dried it.  I then sanded the hull with 120 grit sand paper.  After sanding, I wiped the hull down with a damp cloth and then waited for it to dry.  Once it was dry, I taped the gunwale off with 2 inch blue painter's tape and then applied the first coat of primer (sea gloss) with a 4 inch foam roller.  I tried to 'tip' it with a paint brush, but I found that the primer was too thick so I just rolled it.  I waited over night then sanded the primer with 120 grit paper, wiped it down and applied the second coat.  For these two coats, I used almost an entire quart of primer.

After about 6 hours, I sanded the hull with 220 grit sand paper and applied the first coat of paint (Interlux Dark Blue Topside paint).  I did used the roll and tip method for this because the paint bubbled exceedingly, but the tipping seemed to eliminate all of the bubbles.  I again waited over night and sanded the hull again with 220 grit and applied the second coat of paint.  It looks pretty good, but on my next boat, I'll make sure to spend more time fairing the hull (I can see areas where the epoxy 'sagged'). 

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to spend fairing and sanding and fairing and sanding etc. because I will be moving to Idaho (from Florida) in a week.   Overall though, I am pleased with the outcome.  The hull will need to withstand the 2200 mile trip across country on the top of my truck.

[kmrmike]

Your finished project looks great! From some of your photos I see you have a water softener, lift weights and drink a lot of water!

      What would make someone move to Idaho from the Sunshine State? Sounds real cold to me! Good Luck...Mike

[P Doug (WA)]

Very nice,  You can be proud for sure!