1x12 Board Comes Apart

[Dave R1]

Edited because it was not on topic.

[Dave R1]

Removed

[Greg Luckett]

No' date=' Greg. differences of opinion are great. However it seems that what I've used for materials and had good luck with are being put down as inferior even though they've worked fine for me for the last four years.

My red oak has not turned black and the yellow poplar has not rotted. My rudder made from a single piece of yellow poplar as not warped, rotted or otherwise been a problem.

As I said before, Douglas fir and souther yellow pine are not available in my area and I used what I could get. It has all worked perfectly despite what others might say.[/quote']

Hmmm, I did not know Red Oak was expected to turn black. White Oak I have heard does this. As you pointed out earlier (I think) the term Poplar can be many different species of wood, which is why I do not like using it for boat building.....never sure what the heck it is. The sorts of lumber available to you are very similar to what I can find here in Michigan. Sassafras makes a great boat building wood which cost me about $1.50/bdft rough. Tulip Poplar is common and makes for good moldings in the house. I try to avoid like the plague buying any lumber from HD or Lowes....just too much unknown and poor quality of drying.

[Dave R1]

I quote Barry's post on the first page: "The big challenge with Red Oak is that its residual moisture content will cause it to begin to blacken under the finishes and decompose."

[Greg Luckett]

I quote Barry's post on the first page: "The big challenge with Red Oak is that its residual moisture content will cause it to begin to blacken under the finishes and decompose."

I wonder about this too since I have used Red Oak to build furniture and never have seen this effect.

[Charlie Jones]

First- Not intending to put anyone down on the choice of what's available. Just the attempt to "go cheap" If ya can't get different, then build the boat with what's available- just bear in mind that it might not hold up as well as "traditional" choices. If you CAN get better stuff, don't use the cheap stuff just to save a few bucks.

After all- the very first strip planked boats were done by watermen who needed cheap boats for work and had access to laths (offcuts) from factories- so they used 'em. But they kinda sorta expected to use a boat up in a year, and build a new one over the following winter

On Red Oak- red oak has a different cell structure from white oak. If you take a long chunk of red. stick one end into some water and blow through the other ( like a straw) you can blow bubbles. The pores run full length and if there is any run out in the grain, those will come to the surface and wick water into the interior, should it get wet.

White oak on the other hand has a different structure and doesn't do that. White oak is more resistant to rot too- tighter grain.

Sealed red oak, with care and watching, will work- it probably will eventually discolor and blacken, particularly around fastenings. But then white oak has a tendency to blacken around fastenings also. SO does Ash and it's often used on canoes, etc as gunnels. Also used for oars..

I wouldn't use red oak anywhere it will get wet and stay wet. In places where it stays dry or gets wet and gets completely dry, it should work ok.

[Frank Hagan]

I used some red oak on my Weekender, for the bits, the hatch and a few other parts inside the cabin. Red oak has two problems for use outside or on boats: it has a porous "straw like" grain structure and contains tannic acid (I think) that causes it to turn black in the presence of iron. White oak also has this acid.

If you look at the end grain of a cut piece of red oak, you will see open pores that look like straws. If you take a short piece of red oak, stick one end in water, and blow on the other end, you get bubbles. White oak has a structure that blocks these straw-like pores so air can't be blown through it. If you ever have to differentiate between red and white oak, look at the end grain.

Both red and white oak have tannic acid. When iron or steel come in contact with it you will get a black stain. You can get black staining just from water contact, because water will contain trace amounts of iron. People with oak floors sometimes have this happen.

This may be what Barry is referring to; if the finish over the red oak is compromised, and water is allowed to enter into any of the end grain, it can be trapped there. The black stains under the finish are, in my opinion, evidence that water has infiltrated the finish. Rot can be expected later on because the water is trapped there, and won't dry out easily.

In my area, I just re-varnished the oak parts every year. I did have some finish problems on the oak hatch, as movement and the overall size of it caused the finish to be compromised. If I was to use red oak again, I think I would coat it first with a thinned epoxy, or use 8 - 10 coats of Epithanes varnish and keep it well varnished (I love Epithanes, but it is expensive!)

Robb White did use Poplar, and one of the issues of Wooden Boat had an article on it that was intended to show that it was an acceptable wood for boats. Technology has changed a lot, and being able to encapsulate things with epoxy, use of better paints and adhesives, etc., can let us use slightly different materials.

And for most of us, we're building trailerable boats that will spend most of their lives on the trailer. What percentage of the time will they be in the water? Let's say you get to the local lake or harbor every single Saturday and spend a full 8 hours on the water .... that's 416 hours out of 8,760 in a year. Less than 4% of the time. There's more opportunity for water damage from rain while on the trailer than there is from water exposure. Most of the trailerable boats I see with water damage are from neglect as they sit on the trailer.

I'm of the opinion that on our small, inexpensive boats ... the Bolger, Stevenson's Projects, and smaller B&B designs ... that you can use some of the inexpensive, locally available wood and do just fine. But if you're building a boat that will live in the water, exposed to that environment for 24/7, or planning to sail to Bermuda, then you should build for that use.

And I certainly wouldn't worry about experimenting on a locally sailed, trailerable boat for things like rudders, hatches, grab rails, etc. These can be easily replaced if need be, and you have the advantage of coming back and being able to tell the experts that it worked for you for "x number of years" without a problem.

[Frank Hagan]

Forgot to mention one of my favorite tricks ... you can "ebonize" white or red oak by putting it in water with steel wool. After a while, it comes out this marvelous black color that won't wash off. It only penetrates a bit, so you can sand it off, but it makes a great accent for trim pieces on furniture, etc.

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- Frank- looks like we were keying at the same time-

You can also turn oak the prettiest brown by enclosing it in an airtight chamber ( plastic will do) with a bowl of ammonia. Called "fuming" .

In the shop I have some ammonia from a blueprint shop- WAY stronger than household, but household will do the job- just takes longer.

[Frank Hagan]

LOL- Frank- looks like we were keying at the same time-

You can also turn oak the prettiest brown by enclosing it in an airtight chamber ( plastic will do) with a bowl of ammonia. Called "fuming" .

In the shop I have some ammonia from a blueprint shop- WAY stronger than household' date=' but household will do the job- just takes longer.[/quote']

That was a favorite of the Arts and Crafts movement in making what we call Mission furniture now. I've done that, and it gives a very nice color that you can't really get with staining.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Please don't misunderstand me. I"m not putting anyone down for what they have chosen to use to build their boat. I'm only concerned that many new builders will get the wrong opinion and some will wish they had not chosen to use one thing or another. The positive reports of using them by many who have taken the time to use them with care and thought and sealed them or used them where they wouldn't be a major structural issue are just one side of the picture. I've seen the other side as well with failures too many to mention, structural issues from wrong wood choices and neglect. Incorrectly laid out structural components with poor fasteners or bad glue jobs and really bad caulking jobs. I've seen what were at one time absolutely magnificently built projects that have turned to junk in too short a time, most often due to poor selection of materials and trying to save a dollar here and there. I'm not against saving a buck myself. I scrounge salvage yards, purchase recycled materials all the time. Good stuff out there all over the world if you just go looking for it and don't have to have it look pretty when you find it.

What I'm alluding to is that there are some marginal materials that are being claimed to be free from issues. There are so many different regional choices to be considered. I fully understand the difficulty in finding good materials in many areas. Often times it is necessary to order them or drive quite some distance to get something that will work. It is far easier to pick up what looks like a good plank at Home Depot or Lowes and like Ken, find out that it ain't what it seems to be when you start to work with it.

Unfortunately, you don't know what species of wood you are picking up all the time. Poplar in one distributors area will be fine, in another will begin to rot sitting in your garage over the winter. Some subspecies of pine will be outstanding in one area but contain too many pitch pockets in another. Western Red Cedar isn't considered by many a good boat building wood because it isn't as strong as a number of other species. But it is used for planking and strip building all the time with excellent results. Many very large boats are built with red cedar laminated hulls. Southern Yellow Pine is cussed by some on these forums because they chose plain sawn lumber and had warpage issues with it. Where quarter sawn SYP really doesn't have warpage issues at all.

What works for one in one area may be a less than great choice in another. I tend to look for consistenlly good materials regardless of species if they will hold up and are even fairly reasonable. But I really choose my lumber with care. I hand pick every stick and reject far more than I would ever take with me even if they were less expensive. Picky, yes and no. I buy used DF shelving where ever I can go to get it. Why, it is usually old growth, tight grain, knot free and great building material. Can you get it in Colorado, or Maine, Florida or Tennessee? No! But there are other good woods there that are recognized as suitable for good building. You just have to spend a little time looking for them and unfortunately, Lowes, Home Depot and other big box stores don't usually carry what you need.

Often it is just patience and a little finger walking that will get what you want and at a pretty reasonable price. But you may have to order it and, Heavens Forbid, wait for it to get there.

Would rather wait for suitable materials than use questionable ones just because they were available locally.

I have total respect for what the contributors to this forum are offering. Good stuff and we all have differing backgrounds, options, opinions and budgets.

Would rather see one built and enjoyed with even less than the best materials. It is still the builders choice and I totally respect that. Just give them the benefit of a good honest discussion and options to choose from. There isn't any "best and only way" to build a boat that will give us good results. All choices and these are all compromises in one way or another.

Good sailing to all of you! :wink:

[kydocfrog]

Well, my laminated rudder (oak, vertical strips) that came with the hull delaminated along the glue seams. A glue problem, although the moisture darkening was very visible at some of the fault lines.

I've got the replacement carved, drilled, and two coats of epoxy on. I went with a very clear 1x12 pine plank. Mahogany or something more substantial would have been nice, and I might well have used marine ply if it were available locally, but hopefully the pine will last for a while. I will make sure that I don't leave the rudder down when she is on the bouy.

We shall see. Trying to get back in the water next weekend.

DocA

[Ken_StJohn]

Isn't so much trying to use cheap materials as it is finding all the woods mentioned continuously. For a first time boat builder it's a maze of suggestions and opinions coming down on either side of center - all of which are extremely useful and appreciated. Trips to the local lumber yards (not the big boxes) are fruitless when trying to find fir or yellow pine or marine plywood or , or, or. Colorado is a no-man's land being between the great supplies of the Northwest and North Central U.S. Ordering everything we need and having it shipped into the state is akin to life in Hawaii. Taking responsibility for the materials is the builder's ultimate challenge but, a good compromise between availability, high shipping costs, and performance makes Colorado projects a constant trade off. We do the best we can with materials we can get and hope for the best.

[Ken_StJohn]

Seems as though any 1x12 poplar board from the big box that is under 6-feet has been assembled using 1x6's and glue. I found the 6-foot and longer boards to be solid pieces. I bought a 6-footer and, following Ray's advice, cut out one rudder blank and used it as a template for a second spare rudder with the other half of the board.

[Greg Luckett]

I built a rudder from a very good quality exterior grade plywood, 1/2 x 2ft x 4ft. which I doubled and laminated using West System with a thickner. Then I used the old, rotted rudder for a template, cut out the pattern and shaped with a power plane and a belt sander. Once I liked the shape, I glassed it with 2 or 3 layers plus two extra layers on the edges, then finished it with several coats of primer and paint. It turned out well and probably is still being used with that boat, which was sold several years ago. It is a back up rudder and the main rudder was brand new from the factory (I had replaced the rotted rudder with a non-pop up and got much better control). It would not have looked good finished bright. Oh, and it was a pop up rudder too, but not needed on a wing keeled hull.

[Terry Dunn]

A guy that works at the Littleton, CO West Marine store bought the bleacher seats from Denver West HS when the gym was redone. 14' and 16' long by 8" and 9" wide by 1" thick (not 3/4). He had a bunch of it.

I bought a piece from him and used it for my gunwales. Nice wood. Appears to be a mahogany from about 1938. Of course, you could tell me the wood is type a and I would'nt know the difference. It was nice to work with. Had I run into him sooner, I would have used it for all of my structural pieces whan I built my boat. It wasn't as cheap as the 2X doug fir I bought at Home Depot. I ripped Doug Fir into 1x2s for seat frames etc. I think they have more hemlock and less DF now.

If you are interested I can probably dig up his name. It was three years ago I bought the piece but I saw the guy a few months ago and he said he still has some.

There are bolt holes where they were bolted to bleachers any a bunch of coats of finish.

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- the keel on the Core Sound 17 I delivered in May is made from a bleacher seat from Lufkin High School in east Texas. Long run, tight grained, clear straight grain fir, 1 full inch thick. I've had it for 15 years.

Beautiful to work with.

[Barnacle Jim]

Ahoy Charlie,

Long run, tight grained, clear straight

[Greg Luckett]

Heaing yall talking about Texas just plain makes me homesick.

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- ever hear of Camden, in east Texas? Right outside the metropolis of Corrigan.

I was born in Camden and the farm was in Corrigan. Well- 3.5 miles west of Corrigan anyway.

Camden no longer exists- Champion Paper bought the place out and has offices there. Strangely enough, the guy who lives diagonally across the street from us is named Charles, and was also born in Camden.

Corrigan DOES still exist.

Small world huh?

Oh for the those challenged on Texas geography, Corrigan is half way between Livisgston and Lufkin on Hwy 59, about 100 miles north northeast of Houston.