On the rocks; need advice

[kydocfrog]

Okay, need some advice. Short version of story is I put Charlie Girl on the rocks today. Long version:

Background: CG has 25 pounds of lead in the focs'l; no other ballast yet. When on the bouy she sits with her chines in the water at the bow and the stern maybe 2 inches out of the water right at the transom. Pictures indicate that her bow chine may be slightly out of the water when I am on board.

Sailing to date had impressed me at how nicely she came through irons and tacked smoothly in light and moderate air. She has a distinct weather helm.

I normally sit on port side, I suspect because that keeps the wheel at my right hand. I have had no particular routine of swapping sides during tacks up to now because air has been very light.

Today I went sailing with my daughter. She weighs in at 110 maybe. I weigh in at 195. She was sitting starboard side at the cabin bulkhead handling jib sheets. I was port side, mid bench. Air was variable, 5 to 10 with but relatively steady. There was a fair amount of wind swirl toward the banks as the sides of the lake are treelined and the lake relatively narrow.

She absolutely refused to answer starboard helm. Initial fix was to note that gaff was still hanging on shrouds so head of sail would not come around. Spreader is coming. I slacked the halyards slightly, which made the luff of the main a bit ugly and baggy but freed the jaws and seemed to help at first. On next tack to starboard (helm to port was relatively effective) helm full starboard produced no results. Came up toward the wind on weather helm the refused to go anywhere further. I was backing down wind on lee shore with the helm full over starboard. She wouldn't come up even enough to heave to. I waited to long to jibe out of it and put her hard on the rocks. Distrubing crunch, but the big forefoot is at least a good rock rammer.

The odd thing was that the problem was mainly with starboard helm. My looks over the stern seemed to indicate that the rudder was going hard over. We got some correction by both moving to starboard side as I put the helm over, but that seems like a self limiting solution if the wind were any stronger. Took me twice to shoot my bouy because she wouldn't answer to starboard even at almost a drift. Tacks to port remained relatively effective, althoug I failed to get through the wind once with helm to port.

Bow too far up with two on board? Side to side bias of weight distribuiton? I haven't really checked the rudder swing, but I think it is even -- port and starboard. Bad jib handling? (Jib is clipped off on eyebolt right at bowsprit, sheets run through pulley at fore shroud) Any other suggestions?

Doc(Puzzled)A.

[Dave R1]

Hmmm... a puzzle for sure. Assuming the rudder swings equally port and starboard and the fact that this hasn't been an issue before I would be looking at weight distribution, too.

You might look a little closer at the rudder to make sure all is right there.

One thing I've found helpful when tacking is to backwind the jib before sheeting in on the lee side. If there's any doubt about making the tack, this should help.

Weight differential from side to side might be something to consider but it really shouldn't cause you and problems. If changing that has an impact I would be looking for something else as the cause. The weight differential by uitself shouldn't be a problem.

One thing I would try is having your daughter sit in the companionway. You'll have her weight on board but it will be on the centerline.

Is it possible you're dragging something on the port side? Barnacles? A dock bumper? Stowaway hanging on the port rail?

You might want to give another solo try and see if your tacking goes back to the way it was before.

Probably none of this helps but I wish you luck.

[Greg Luckett]

Ummmm....there isn't a trailer still attached is there? I saw a pic of something like that years ago.

[Frank Hagan]

Check the travel on the rudder again. You mentioned it being hard over, and it may be that you are actually getting it too far over on the starboard tack, and it is acting like a brake rather than a rudder. If its over more than about 30

[Barry Pyeatt]

I too would recommend you check the rudder travel to either side. On those boats that I've worked with the builders that had tacking issues the rudder travel was a primary issue on most of them. As Frank mentioned, once beyond about 30 degrees to either side of center, the rudder becomes a brake rather than a rudder. A simple block of wood attached to the underside of the rear deck will limit the travel to the desired amount if you are using a wheel. If a tiller, then you will need to install above deck stops to limit travel. Simple as it may sound, simply changing sides with each tack will probably solve that issue as you won't be quite so reaching to one side vs. pulling the tiller to the other. Most everyone I know with a tiller has to get used to how far it moves when sitting on one side vs. being on the other.

Also, is the rudder installed with the angled edge forward? If not it can adversely effect tacking and control abilities when weight distribution is unequal. This probably isn't the case, but it has happened with a few of the boats.

Odd though it may sound, did you install the gills on the rudder box? Doesn't seem like it would make that big a difference, but it can make a huge difference when combined with weight distribution. The amount of turbulance plus over swing on the tiller can prevent you from getting the bow to come around when tacking.

I would also recommend that you get some type of spreader in place to give the gaff jaws room to move. Phil Gowen's spreader is easy to fabricate and install. It doesn't need to be any larger than that to give enough room for the gaff jaws to keep from becoming hung up on the shrouds.

You mention a distinct Weather helm in light to moderate winds. Is this a new development? Or has this been the case all along?

You might also re-check the mast angle at the front of the mast box to the bottom. If it is off more than about 1 or 2 degrees, you probably have too muich rake in the mast. Easily fixed below the deck level if that is the situation. But this would most likely have shown up early on in your outings.

[Ken_Potts]

I'm speaking as a bad sailor (I often need to give a boost to get all the way through a tack.) so forgive me if this is too elementary.

Pay close attention to whether you've completely lost forward motion. If you stop dead in the water turn the rudder the other direction in anticipation of your impending backward movement. Once you've started to drift backward it will help bring the boat around. If you start to drift backward without reversing the rudder direction the rudder will be working against you - You will effectively be "heaving to".

If you can reach the boom as the boat stops it also helps to just reach out and push on the boom with your hand (if you're tacking to starboard you should push the boom to starboard).

I don't know why there's a difference between tacking to port or starboard but I suspect that if you're heeling a bit to port the boat would be a little harder to bring around to starboard because the mast is sticking farter out from the center of the boat than when you are tacking to starboard.

And by all means - If I've contradicted anything another has said in response to this thread follow HIS advice first because he's almost surely a more experienced sailor than I am Especially when it comes to a gaffer (which I haven't had the pleasure to sail yet).

[adla]

what you described is exactly what i experienced when i took my friends Michael and Crystal for a sail this spring....it was the last time i had the boat out with the wheel. With the tiller i don't have any of the problems associated with the wheel i.e. unresponsive steering. And - if i need a little help in a tack i can use it like a sculling oar and push the nose through. i think the difference is in "feel" - the wheel doesn't give any indication of what is going on...and the tiller does - you don't have to look over the transom to see the rudder. BUT - it was exactly the kind of thing you described - specifically the onesided unresponsive helm that put me over the edge. At yuba with the tiller...the difference was phenomenal. i didn't miss a single tack.

a.

[Bud_Wilson]

Kydocfrog I am not a good sailer myself therefore I have made most of the misques at least once. My guess is it is a loose nut on the wheel (Capt) you are putting on the brake rather than the turn signal. Try to slip up on her and turn her easy ever so lightly keep your boat speed and she will turn around nicely. If this don't work start the moter power her around and say those magic words something about a sandy beach. Y'all Come Cap'N Bud. :wink:

[Dave R1]

Ah, steeering rope on one side is too loose. That sounds like a likely culprit with an easy fix. I didn't think of that because I didn't run into that problem with the steering and with the sprockets and chain, there's no chance for slippage.

Well I hope that solves the problem and you're back on the water soon.

[Greg Luckett]

Sounds like a good, possible solution. Guess my trailer idea has too low (below the whale poop at the bottom of the sea) a probability.

I had wondered if it might be something with the wheel ropes but since I have yet to build a Vacationer and/or sail one, it would be pure speculation on my part.....not that I avoid that.

[Ken_StJohn]

As my career was primarily in aviation, I cannot resist noting the similarities in sailing and aircraft. This may or may not be the issue here but I couldn't resist examining the rudder issues!

The rudder behaves like an airfoil with the water obviuosly playing the part of the airmass. When amidships, the water flow devides equally and passes past each side at the same rate. Move the rudder to one side slightly and the water on each side will be flowing over the rudder at two different rates and two different pressures. By comparison to each other, pressure will be less on the side opposite to the turn due to its increased speed. The rudder (and therefore the part of the boat it's attached to) will be pulled (or lifted) towards the lower pressure resulting in a turn.

What causes this faster speed on the low pressure side of the rudder has to due with the property of a liquid or gas to follow the contour of a surface and appear to "stick" to it. This happens as long as the surface is properly designed to be smooth and is a science in itself. Any irregularity on the surface that interferes with this smooth flow will cause the flow to separate from the surface and "stall". The stall means that because there is now no particular difference in pressures, the rudder will no longer provide lift to turn the boat.

The stall can also be caused by moving the rudder beyond that point where maximum lift is achieved. Beyond the max lift point, the water will separate from the side opposite to the turn on its own regardless of any irregularities in its shape.

Contrary to popular belief, the only reason an airplane (or a rudder) stalls is due to the angle of attack it makes to the oncoming air (or water) flow as it moves along. It has nothing to do with its speed. Airplanes can be stalled at 700 knots by abrupt movement of the controls and rudders can be stalled at 20 knots the same way and I've done both.

There are <at least> three conslusions to be drawn:

1. Design the rudder like an airfoil with smooth sides, thicker at the leading edge, and tapering towards the rear - you know, like an airplane wing. Spend time making sure there are no bumps, valleys, blunt leading edge, rough surfaces, etc., etc. We don't want anything that will prematurely interrupt the smooth flow and the natural "stickyness" of the water as it passes over the surface.

2. In operation try to move the rudder slowly and smoothly through its various positions approaching the point of maximum lift. In times of slow forward speed it's hard to feel when the rudder passes through the point of maximum lift and stalls. Easier to feel with a tiller (as Adla experienced) but also easier to move through the point of stall due to the long lever arm moment.

3. In airplanes you recover from the stall by lowering the angle of attack between the relevant wind and the wing until the airplane starts to fly again. In boats you do the same by bringing the rudder back until the water smoothly flows over it again and then ease it back to the point of maximum lift.

[kydocfrog]

Okay. Sounds like maybe I am oversteering. I guess my previous boat habit of putting the tiller hard over may not be the way to go with this one. I'll try to do a quick fix on the gills on the rudder box too. I know I have to do a tension check on the steering lines, but the 30 degree limit is a new thought. I also appreciate the comment on backing the rudder if forward motion stops completely. I might have figured that out with a tiller, but I haven't gotten the full feel of the wheel yet. I think that might actually have swung me enough to have stayed off the rocks.

The weather helm has been there since the start. I don't think it is excessive.

I'll go back and look at plans, but I'm pretty sure I have the rudder installed properly.

I'll have her out again this week, I'm sure an will work though these suggestion. THANKS

PS. There apparently was an incident in KY of some dude with a brand new pontoon party barge affair backing in, unhitching the trailer and motoring off. When he came back, apparently he was all upset about not being able to get any speed out of her.,

DocA

[Ken_StJohn]

Doc et al:

In light of the discussion regarding flow over the rudder-foil, it's easy to see what the gills do. They actually become AN ESSENTIAL part of the rudder's lift equation. On aircraft we have leading edge "slots" which help to start the airflow over the top of the wings - particularly at low forward speeds like takeoffs or landings (watch-you'll see them down on these operations). Same with the gills. They keep the water on the opposite side of the rudder as the turn from taking a short cut over to the high pressure turn side. If this short cut happens it's a double whammy! It robs the low pressure side of water flow which is trying to create the lift and neutralizes (or greatly reduces) the pressure differencial between the two sides of the rudder. Hence the rudder stalls easily as a small amount of movement quickly reaches what maximum amount of lift is available - which, without the gills, isn't much to begin with. This will be particularly noticeable at slow forward speeds as there isn't much water flow going over the rudder surfaces.

Conclusion: Add the gills!!

[John Weigandt]

I would agree that you may have non apparent rudder slippage. The difference between slip and no slip is minute...

it will slip when you are under max pressure.. then as it stalls and the pressure comes off it... and you have time to look.. lo and behold, it's hard over... it just isn't going where you need it when the pressure is on. The forces involved here are amazingly massive.

Also.. if you have any slop in the eye bolt/ gudgeon pintle system.. this lets the rudder angle off the vertical.. I actually put a piece of conduit in instead of the long threaded bolt that had lots of slop... Made it a lot tighter and nicer steering... and less clunking noises.

I had the lower part of the rudder box break at BEER (you mean wood will rot in a short 8 years???) and believe me.. you really lose a lot of steerage with even a little play in the rudder tip taking it off the vertical.

Also weight forward helps.. I keep about 40 lb in the forepeak and a big deep cycle battery amidships in the companionway box.

Also... if you are pinching hard, and forward speed is low.. you are much more likely to stall.. sometimes better to fall off for a few seconds gain some speed to take you through the tack.

Finally.. just as you are coming through the wind.. pull your jib sheet tight to center the jib.. just as you come through the center of the wind, it will help pull the nose across faster.. then slack it ... Mine stays in a jam cleat.. i never uncleat in a tack... just pull the portion of the sheet that is forward of the cleat and then release.. simple as can be.

Im an 8 year weekender veteran.. last missed a tack at PIKL towing a kayak in 15 mph winds gusting to 20 and 2 foot waves.... Otherwise.. never miss :-)

John

[adla]

to be fair regarding my experience with the wheel - it included rudder box slippage due to set up per the plans and uneven rope tightening. i switched to pintles etc. and there is absolutely no excess movements at all now. Also - if i had a kingpin type indicator on one of the wheel spokes it would have been better -- for a quick indication of what is going on with the rudder.

i don't have any stoppers on my system to keep me from going over 30 degrees when turning but - it might be because i am a girl (much more timid in movement) that bringing the tiller/rudder over too far isn't a problem - i found that it is quick and responds to a little movement....and then once i am on a new course i don't have to keep it over. ---actually, i used hard over to break - because it will slow you down to be too far over with the rudder.

i might have kept the wheel if i lived close enough to a lake to do more trial and error - but the lake is far enough away and i have so little time to get away that it made more sense to switch and be able to steer and enjoy the boat (and not look like an a$$ - because i can't control my boat) ... For what it is worth i plan to use the wheel on my vacationer...by then i should be sufficiently practiced in sailing and i will use a more engineered design like dave's chain system.

i also have two anchors and a battery up front - and keep a cooler full of ice and drinks in the cabin - center towards the front bulkhead. i don't think of it so much as ballast but as some essentials....the boat behaves the best like that.

a.

[Dave R1]

I added the gills to my weekender between rudder box and stern post. I noticed a difference in performance on the next sail. I used that rubber garge door seal that is about two inches wide because that was the easiest thing to get my hands on. I put a piece on each side of the rudder box extending forward and another on the stern post extending aft to overlap the other pieces.

[kydocfrog]

Got a lot of experiments here to try. I may haul her out tomorrow and do some quick checks and fixes and try getting on a slightly larger lake.

Somehow, Adla, I would not have associated the adjective timid with you. Don't even...

I will have to admit, though, that I did feel a bit foolish running her hard aground with Ellen on board. (Gee Dad, neat. Is this the normal way to slow down and change directions... :oops: ) At least there weren't any bass boats or jetskis in view at the time.

DocA

[Frank Hagan]

I tried sailing one day with the gills, and without, and thought I noticed a difference. I used that flexible vinyl molding you see so much in commercial places.

Was the top of the gaff ever free of the shrouds on the starboard side? (Or port, I can't remember!) If the top of the sail is "over there", it would effect the trim of the boat the same way a misaligned rudder would.

On larger gaffers, they even have a "gaff vang" running from the end of the gaff that is tied off on the on the windward side to eliminate sail twist (when tacking, you have to loose the gaff vang, tack, then reset the vang on the other side of the boat, which can be a challenge with a large mainsail in the way, so often the old gaffers had two gaff vang lines from the end of the gaff). Put enough twist in the upper part of the sail, and I suspect you would have trouble tacking through!

[kydocfrog]

The gaff did seem free when I slacked the halyards a bit, although it did make the sail a bit slack at the tack.

[Ken_StJohn]

Effectiveness of the gills is <obviously> proportional to how much of them are in the flow. Any situation that puts more rudder box in the water will benefit from them.