Epoxy vs MAS

[Greg Luckett]

Ok, looking at Joel's site, the MAS ratio is 2:1, not the 1:1 I was just using for the math :oops: .....that does it....off to bed.:sleeping:

[Pipefitter]

I have heard that Devlin uses MAS exclusively now and this caused me to consider it. It looks like MAS cost about 30% or so more than epoxy, which is already expensive as it is. Why use MAS?

Opinions and/or discussion please.

No rant.I thought was where you were going with the question. You mentioned cost differences and asked why would one consider one over the other. I merely stated that there is no reason to use any brand beyond preference.I also chimed in with others responses for conversation's sake. It seemed that all the replies were comparable. Sorry if it caused any confusion or clogged up your thread and I have no animosity towards any brand. West is almost worth it for all the research and processes they have developed over the years. I think you will find after what has been said here, that most of it is true.I did just offer opinion and discussion afterall.I took that as an invitation.Sometimes other avenues of the topic will jog a more applicable response from others more qualified and I like to learn too

[Barry Pyeatt]

I'm of the opinion that a lot of it is a regional thing as well. Some epoxies are formulated primarily for their own neighborhood initially. As their business grows they add to the mix so that they an cover more geographic area. The stuff is bloody expensive to ship. Formulas are pretty sophisticated for some applications, but for what we are doing it is pretty basic.

IMHO, it boils down again to ease of use and convenience. I've used a lot of different brands in the past and didn't find a real preference other than ease of getting the stuff. But then those were primarily commercial builds. A bit of a difference didn't make much difference in the total. But since it is the second biggest material cost in most of these boats, I'd be shopping locally if I could pick it up. By the time you factor in time/shipping and all the rest, it can be just as easy for me to go to a local supplier and pick up what I need when I need it.

[Pipefitter]

Good point,Barry. Now that you mention it,the epoxy supplier I used claimed it to be more humidity friendly or designed for our higher temperatures as well.I suppose that could make some difference as to what solvents are used in their blend.Maybe not. I don't recall having any issues with the humidity. I also chose a supplier that had all the tools and cloths in stock.

At first, I was convinced by my research of composite boat building,that I was going to have to use West epoxy to get any satisfactory results at all.

[Greg Luckett]

No rant.I thought was where you were going with the question. You mentioned cost differences and asked why would one consider one over the other. I merely stated that there is no reason to use any brand beyond preference.I also chimed in with others responses for conversation's sake. It seemed that all the replies were comparable. Sorry if it caused any confusion or clogged up your thread and I have no animosity towards any brand. West is almost worth it for all the research and processes they have developed over the years. I think you will find after what has been said here' date=' that most of it is true.I did just offer opinion and discussion afterall.I took that as an invitation.Sometimes other avenues of the topic will jog a more applicable response from others more qualified and I like to learn too [/quote']

No apology needed at all and you have not done anything at all to offend me or "clogged" up the thread. I have been struggling with how to ask what I was looking for and trying not to confuse everyone. Your input is appreciated. I did sense that you might have a "hot button" with the way you responded about the expense issue. You are sort of "preaching to the choir" as most of us who build boats here have learned not to skimp with material qualitiy and we all keep harping about the same thing to the first time builders. Keep inputing please and don't feel your opinion is not valued. Thankyou.

[Guest Oyster]

No one can justify even the cheapest materials and placing the materials in a form of a boat hull. So that being said, we must not turn it into a second job or let it be a chore in the process. While price is important, local access, and ease of avaliabilty in the ongoing process of a particular project makes it easier for us to finish the project in a timely manner. Many fund these projects with extra funds along the way.

So if West costs more per gallon when seeking prices and comparing apples to apples, on a given day, it may also be the case that buying even the cheapest brands, shipping it in, to do the whole project at once, may not an option for many here.

The breakdown on the shipping one gallon or ten changes to make the larger amount still costs proportionaly less, needs to be done at one time. I know I have no problem paying for the one time or so, the higher price, just because I was not able to purchase 10 gallons at a time. Shipping is another problem with these materials, with certain shippers and surcharges, and even drop off points for some alternative carriers that are farmed out to some of the remote areas of the world, or even in this country, yet again causing the agravation to be more than its worth in the overall costs of materials. So, while costs does play a role in buying epoxy, its not always the key issue and relevant considering what people feel comfortable with using either.

At the end of the day, part of the beauty and enjoyment of these hulls and projects, far surpasses worrying about the money that goes into these projects.You still get a product that is yours, and also saves many here and in the real world from really pouring it one end and having it go out the other, never really seeing the money again. There is a God out there, after all.

[capt jake]

All valid points; Price, availability and quality. Personally, I was not impressed with West while building my kayak. I found that Raka cured in a more consistant manner and was 'clearer' than West's 'clear' hardener. Even including shipping (at the time) Raka worked out to be less expensive (shipping from FL to WA). I also prefer the 2:1 vs the 5:1 mix. Less room error. ;)

System Three (though made only 40 miles away) is far more expensive than those from the East coast including shipping.

Now shipping has taken a huge jump in pricing lately, so Oysters point should not be overlooked either.

MAS is shipped out of NJ.

[Howard]

Not that I have the experience of you professionals, but having just about finished the Spindrift, I've worked with the stuff long enough to have some opinions and observations.

First, I started out using West on a variety of glassing projects, as that was what was available from West Marine, which is the only "supplier" of this type material I'm aware of locally. It was that or nothing. It worked fine, except I always had small pin holes from the bubbles I could never get rid of, and it wasn't all that clear when coating wood.

So with this in mind, and knowing the cost, I got some test kits from S3 and RAKA. The S3 products have merit....unique, specially built products for the different applications. A fillet mix, a bonding adhesive, fairing compound, clear coating, etc. But that means a bunch of products laying around. And they are also relatively expensive.

With a single resin, you alter it to do what you want. I have been able to do it all with the basic RAKA resin and two hardeners and two or three additives. Fumed silica, wood flour and microballoons. I've tested and the wood always gives way before the resin does. RAKA gives a nice clear coating, has about the right "average" viscosity to wet out, coat, and stay put. Bubbles whipped in during mixing will generally pop on thier own. Oyster's comments about correlating viscosity to temp rings true. If I want it to run or thin out so it soaks in, I warm it a bit, keeping in mind what that is going to do to my "kick speed". It's all good and experience is a great teacher. If anything, I've found that at warmer temps, even the slower hardener can be a real fire drill getting it out of the mixing pot before it heats up and kicks. Even more so if I'm using an additive.

While I use the pumps to dispense with, I measure each 2:1 mix by volume only. I havn't had a bad batch yet. For small tasks, I can make accurate mixes as small as 7.5 ml (about 1/4th fluid ounce). You can't do that with the 5:1 pumps from West.

Having said all that, I can see the merits of a thicker, low viscosity resin for bonding. Something that doesn't require adding a thixotropic, which takes time to mix in. If you are working with a fast hardener, it can get pretty "hot" in the cup before you get the right level of viscosity you are looking for. Bonding can sometimes be a balancing act, between wanting something to set up quickly vs. getting your pieces in place before it kicks off. And a thicker glue may not squeeze out as bad, or run off under clamping pressure. When I did my gunnels, they had to be laminated in place. The amount of twist required considerable clamping pressure, which can squeeze the glue out. So a strong, thick adhesive that doesn't easily squeeze out under clamping pressure would be good for that application.

But again...the standard stuff is plenty strong.

As for blush...the West products have it. Less with S3 and RAKA. And it's water soluble, so you can rinse it with water or a light swipe with a wet rag. I suspect trying to sand it off just grinds it in.

And last, but not least, two or three coats on wood of almost any type creates some of the most beatiful hues from the wood you will ever see. I'm still amazed every time I see it.

[boatbuilder.org]

Greg

all the epoxy I sell is shipped out of New Jersey and the glass and fillers are shipped from Wash state and are not included in the price which is something to take into consideration when buying. A small order shipped across country may cost 20% of the order price whereas a large order shipped a state away may be a little over 5%. Certainly something to consider when getting prices.

The low viscosity feature of MAS resin is a big reason I like is so much. We use a lot of biax and Dynel and the thinner resin makes wet out much easier. There are two types of resin and three hardeners which will do everything, and all you really need is the low viscosity resin and and two hardeners. Slow and med or slow and fast. The hardeners can be mixed to suit depending on the application and the ratio is always two to one. So with the low Viscosity Resin, slow hardener and fast hardener I can do whatever I need to reguardless of temp and conditions. The medium and fast are now no-blush (95% of the time) as well as the slow hardener.

---Joel---

[Pipefitter]

Oyster also has a good point about money vs result and no matter what you spend, it is still going to be prettier,cheaper and a whole lot more satisfying than what most people spend on a snot boat.And aren't we all glad we don't have only polyester as an option to build a boat? I am sure our next door neighbors are very glad as well.

Thanks for cluing me in on the rant,Greg. I went back and tried to soften up one of the replies. Sometimes my replies turn disassociated typing in the process. I just like talking about boats and since I finished mine,I'm experiencing a little project withdrawals.

[Greg Luckett]

At this point, having re-read the thread, my concern with the MAS is about what Charlie was saying about the effects of temperature on the MAS. West has similar problems here, but we heat the shop or the scarfed joint to speed up the curing. I like that the MAS has a higher viscosity and will wet out easier. This is a real chore using the West.

Joel, how did the Raka compare to the MAS as to wetting out and curing times? Can the West fillers be used by either the MAS or Raka brands? I would like to be able to use up my stock and/or just run to the store for some more if I run short and do not have time to wait for a delivery.

Another question: does it matter which epoxy is used over a previous coating if they are fully cured first? For instance, what if I used the West for filleting but the MAS or Raka for glassing?

Thanks again to all of you

[capt jake]

Joel, how did the Raka compare to the MAS as to wetting out and curing times? Can the West fillers be used by either the MAS or Raka brands? I would like to be able to use up my stock and/or just run to the store for some more if I run short and do not have time to wait for a delivery.

Not Joel, but I'll take a stab at it.

Having used both Raka and MAS, they are very similar with their ability to wet out. Both work very well.

You can use the existing fillers you have with no problems; they are not proprietary.

I like that the MAS has a higher viscosity and will wet out easier.

A certain amount of heat is key to cure of any type of epoxy.

That would actually be a 'lower' viscosity. (meaning thinner).

[Greg Luckett]

Yeah, I thought I had that viscosity thing backwards....lol. Thanks for correcting me.

[Ken_Potts]

Greg,

From what I understand two-part epoxy is two-part epoxy as far as bonding one coat to another. If you prepare the previous coat as recommended by the manufacturer Raka should stick to West as well as West does and MAS should be as good on top of Raka as Raka, etc. BUT - Don't try to make two-part epoxy stick to one-part epoxy or vice-versa.

I haven't actually tried to stick two brands together - My post is based on a conversation I had on the phone several years ago with a West Systems employee. If I'm wrong about this someone PLEASE correct me before Greg follows my advice and has to strip a layer of something!

[Charlie Jones]

Been reading this with interest.

I've used WEST since 1976. I've glassed boats from 6 1/2 feet long to a 35 footer using it. In cooler temps and temps over 100 degrees. Also used MAS and RAKA. As far as wet out is concerend, unless the temps are low, I can't see a nickels difference. WEST epoxy will wet out 10 oz cloth, or 15 OZ Biaxial just as easily IMHO as either of the other two. I had a friend who I assisted in buiding a 34 foot tri using SYS 3. It's an epoxy, just like the others. Just about as easy to use too.

In lower temps I can work faster using WEST since it goes to a workable (not total) cure quicker than either MAS or RAKA.

THe fillers can be used interchangeably with any of the epoxies. There are even OTHER things that are used. I am aware of people who have used wheat flour, some use agricultural lime. It works but I'd not use either in critical situations and certainly not on one of my customers boats.

As far as cost is concerned there isn't THAT much difference between one and another sitting in the shop UNLESS you can cut shipping costs.

On the boat I'm currently building, I'm using RAKA since that's what the customer wants used. Makes little difference to me.

[Charlie Jones]

Ken- you are correct- properly cured and properly prepped, it makes no difference what epoxy is under there. I would not attempt to hot coat with two different brands most particularly not using a 2 -1 then a 5-1 or vice versa. Things are happening chemically during an epoxy cure and I wouldn't want to chance screwing up that cure, but once cured, , it's just a substrate.

Epoxy also adheres quite well to polyester- we use it frequently in repairs. Conversely, the OTHER way doesn't work well. In fact polyester doesn't even adhere all that well to cured polyester unless it's WELL ground.

[Guest Joe, The Deep Boatbuilder]

In lower temps I can work faster using WEST since it goes to a workable (not total) cure quicker than either MAS or RAKA.

.

Just wondering Charlie, What do lower temps qualify as in Texas?

When it gets down to 60 degrees?

[Greg Luckett]

LOL, believe it or not, Texas gets cold. It just does not last very long, and thank you God for that. I truly miss Texas and the heat.

I grew up a few miles from Charlie's and Laura's home. In the winter the tide would go way out on Galveston Bay, exposing large areas of the bottom....out about a 1/4 mile or more, and the pockets of water would freeze. We always went treasure and critter hunting then. Huge rock crabs could be found and all sorts of stuff. This would last for a week or so, then warm up into the 40s or 50s, then another Norther would roll in. It rains a lot in the winter there and fronts often stall.

Having lived in Michigan for a while, 60 is a heat wave. I took the convertible out a couple of weeks ago when we hit 60 and lots of motorcycles out too. It is all relative, which is why when discussing the resin pros and cons we refer to the ambient conditions. Cold weather here runs from October to June.

[Charlie Jones]

We frequently get into the mid to upper 30s here during the deepest part of winter. Occasionally into the 20s but that's rare. Mostly the temps get into the low 40s.

And much to our chagrin, the last three nights have been in the upper 30s!!!! IN MARCH!!! We already have tomato plants setting fruit.

But then there are those times-

[Pipefitter]

We get the same bay clearings here as well Greg. I remember when living by Boca Grande,there was times in the winter where you could nearly walk across the bay if not for the intercoastal being carved in it. That was the best time to scout shell bars and structure we couldn't normally see and then fish there when the tides were normal in spring and summer. It's chilly/windy here today. We saw temps into the 20's this year and there was more than a few times during the build of my boat that the cold stopped me from epoxy/paint work.