Actual mast rake

[kydocfrog]

Does anyone have a figure for the actual mast rake, relative to normal wateline, for the Weekender?

DocA

[Barry Pyeatt]

The mast rake is measured at the front of the mast box to the bottom of the hull at that point. It should measure at 93 degrees. If it is not measured at that point it will measure differently. Since there is no established waterline to measure against, this is how they set it in the plans.

Most of the handling issues I've seen so far with several Weekenders having too much weather helm have been due to this angle being off several degrees.

One I just checked for a purchaser of an existing boat that is about 3 years old was complaining that it was extremely difficult to keep from heading up into the wind. I checked his mast angle for him and it was 102 degrees. The previous owner/builder had installed the front bulkhead and mast box at the wrong angle and then raised the boom several inches because it kept hitting him in the shoulders. He wasn't happy with the boat and its handling so he sold it.

The new buyer is changing that angle by cutting a wedge off of the mast base and reattaching it to the opposite side to bring the mast back to the correct angle. It should make a huge difference in handling.

This has been done on several others that I've worked with and it is easy to correct without major rebuilding of the mast box.

[kydocfrog]

I haven't checked in detail, but I suspect the 93 degree figure from the plans will be right on for Charlie Girl II; the previous owner who did the work on the hull was a right good craftsman. But it is, as Barry notes, relative to the hull bottom and the deck. I'm working on sail plan, and I'm cosidering going to either a boomless gaff or a standing lug. The 80 degree corner at the tack on the sail plan looks a little odd to me, like the clew end (or boom if I do one) will be angled up in the air instead of set out pretty much perpendicular relative to the mast.

[Barry Pyeatt]

The boom will change angle relative to the mast under sail regardless. Without the boom to help hold the foot of the sail I would think that there would present some issues in shape of the mainsail in working a broad reach or working to the wind. I would also think there would be some issues in working downwind in keeping the clew outboard sufficiently to achieve a good efficiency in effort.

I've gone to a 2 X 3 Doug Fir boom because I want to be able to flatten the main and help control the gaff angle. In sailing on several Weekenders mainsail shape is a direct function of being able to control the boom and keep the foot of the main well controlled.

I'm using a traveler, (horse) to help with downward tension where a vang isn't practical on a Weekender, or really necessary with a heavier boom.

If this were a racing system, I wouldn't even consider trying, this is a pleasure, crusing boat that works well in light air, somewhat better in moderate winds and if properly balanced, can be an absolute joy in moderate to heavy winds with good sail management.

The standing lug will help with some of these issues as far as clew control. I don't have any idea if it will work out better or just differently.

But I would really enjoy hearing about your changes and the results.

[PAR]

The very first Weekender I sailed in had a heavy helm and the owner (a nice older fellow, of only Sunfish experience) wasn't sure what to do. After the sail Saturday, we got together Sunday and talked about ways to fix this. I noted his tiller at about 10 degrees when closed hauled and his rudder had a fine, feathered trailing edge. We cut the rudder's (a real pretty piece of cypress) after edge back to present a squared off 1/4", the full length. Then we raked the mast forward as mush as it would go, figuring it could be backed off underway to find the sweet spot. The boom height was nearly a foot higher at it's aft end and this proved to be the best spot. The tiller angle close hauled was now 4 -5 degrees and the pressure much lighter. We did play with different rakes, but the first setting was the best, and the boat sailed much better, even a little higher into the wind, before she pinched and started loosing speed. He was very happy and the rudder didn't stall in gusts like it was doing on Saturday.

"Tuning" a rig can make a world of difference in how well the boat performs in all wind strengths. With some understanding and an afternoon of adjustments, you can find a "sweet spot" on any sailboat and it seems like the boat, suddenly comes alive. I tuned a "hard mouthed" ketch two weeks ago for a friend on the coast. He always bitched about how difficult the boat was to handle when the wind picked up. After tuning, the boat balances under sail alone, with the helm lashed (or locked, as this one has a wheel) He found the difference amazing, not thinking it possible to ever leave the helm unattended. We sailed on a reach for about an hour, never touched the sails or helm, until a big shift forced us to make trim changes. He now thinks I'm some sort of magic man. At the end of the day we practiced, backing up the boat with the sails (no power) alone, which he felt couldn't be done. I assured him the world was discovered by sailing men, in ships of every type and they also found the need to back up every so often, generally not having engines and reverse gears to help. This is a handy skill, takes a good bit of practice and some boats and rigs do it much better then others, but can be learned with practice. I'd suggest trying it in an out of the way location, if you embarrass easily.

[Frank Hagan]

I have said for a long time that the rake of the mast is the most important measurement on the Weekender. I suspect many of the weather helm and tacking problems could be corrected by changing the rake of the mast.

[Craig]

The same goes for the Vacationers Frank. Even pulling the tip of the mast forward with the stay helps a lot.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Sorry Doc, I just realized that this is a bit off the point, but I think it may help a bit for some of the builders.

There are a few things that can help. Pretty basic for those that have some sailing background, but important for everyone to begin to understand. And they will make a difference in your enjoyment of any of these boats.

Mast angle is, as Frank stated, probably the most critical angle on the boat to get correct. It not only contributes to the heavy feel to the helm, whether a tiller or a wheel. But it also determines a lot of the balance of the boat as far as sail power is concerned. That probably more than any other factor is probably why some boats have issues with tacking. If the boat continuously wants to round up into the wind and has a very heavy feel to the helm, then I would seriously check the angle of the mast. If the boom seems too low and you are constantly dodging it then that is another indication that the mast rake is probably too great.

Loose fitting rudder. If the rudder assembly has play in it, you don't have control of the boat, it has control of you when you need control.

Rudder shape or more importantly lack of a good hydrodynamic shape to the rudder itself.

Uneven tension on the shrouds can play a big part on how the boat handles as well. If one shroud is tighter than the others it is unbalanced. If one side is loose when compared to the other it is unbalanced. The forestay should be tight after you tighten up the shrouds. If you thumb the shrouds like a bass string, they should all sound about the same.

The Weekender has a small jib. A slightly larger one will help to balance the helm and reduce the heavy feel to either a tiller or wheel. A lapper with all other things being nearly correct will give a nicely balanced rig for most normal conditions. Light air to moderately heavy. When it gets to really blowing, you would want to douse the lapper and go with either the standard jib and a reefed main or a storm jib and a reefed main.

The gills on the rudder box do help, it may not seem like they are doing anything when you just look at them, but when you are working they do cut down considerably on the turbulence at the rudder and improve rudder efficiency. That and eliminating any play in the gudgeons and pintles will help tighten up on the helm and its handling.

Watching peak halyard tension as conditions change. Keeping a smooth flow over the sail. Adding telltails to the main on both sides will help to learn when you have good flow over the main. It is amazing how quickly you can see if you are getting good efficiency in any wind conditions with just that simple addition.

Keeping the bow down in the water helps a lot. You not only have better control of the boat but it rides better and is better balanced from a sail management point of view. The chines and foot on the keel work together. When you get the bow up there is a loss in control and ability to hold a good steady course. When tacking it will tack better with the bow down and the rig balanced. The helm will also be lighter to handle in all conditions.

Use the clubfoot. It isn't sissy or a sure sign of a novice to have the clubfoot in use. It really helps to learn how to balance the different forces and not have to worry about two additional sheets that must be watched all the time. When you get used to the handling of the boat itself, then try it with separate jib sheets until you get proficient with their use in addition to all the other things you have to watch.

A good basic sailing book is a really nice "Father's Day" item. Leaning how to manage the sails and balance the rig will make any and all outings a lot more fun and pleasurable.

It doesn't have tp have a beautiful finish to sail well. It only has to be properly set up and tuned. And anyone can do it once they learn what forces are in play and how the boat reacts to changes in them.

That unfortunately is what can take a lifetime of sailing to accomplish. But the good news is that the learning curve can be pretty steep if the desire is there and effort is made to learn it.

[hborger]

well all i read sounds familiar. i too am having problems with tacking and attributed it to a lack of forward momentum. my boom seems low, but when i compared pics of my boat with others, the mast rake seems ok. i think it is very difficult to measure the mast rake relative to the waterline. take a look at this pic of my rigged weekender on trailer and tell me what you think about the mast rake/ boom hight.

[Tim Diebert]

Hborger: It looks fine to me.

This is what mine looks like right now....

Actually, they all look fine to me. With all due respect to our very learned, experienced and brilliant members here, moving the mast even a lot will not move the CE forward more than 3 inches or so. Not enough to do more than a 'tune up' as PAR is doing. Changing weather helm from 10 to 5 degrees is great, but not enough IMHO.

Having said that....I will add, not enough to correct my boat.

When I first got mine, (like Doc, I traded for my WE) I raked the mast as far forward as it would go, even removed some wood on the mast stump to allow near vertical adjustment angle. It was not enough to balance the boat to what I would call a proper point.

Again, with all due respect to the original designer of these boats, I personally feel the balance issue has been designed into the boat. The center of effort is fine, but just not in keeping with the center of lateral resistance. Barry, Ray and Par will know what this means...as well as many other folks I am sure....but in the end there needs to be a harmony between these two areas of a sail boat to create a nice balance. There should be enough weather helm that a boat will prefer to round up even in light conditions, but not so much that you get sore muscles from trying to hold the boat from rounding up in windier conditions. Too much weather helm is just plain inefficient as well. It slows you down with the drag effect of the rudder being at such a great angle.

Basically, I feel the shape of the 'keel' in combination with the hull shape is incorrect.

In fact, I guarantee that if the keel shape was reversed end for end, this boat would sail 100% better....and be balanced.

I also guarantee that if you either reversed the 'keel' shape or just remove the enlarged forefoot and added a centerboard or dagger board, your boat will never have trouble tacking.

I know I know, I am a heretic and perhaps a bit rude or impolite for mentioning such a thing. :oops: But, I listen to all the discussion and 'fixes' for 'why can't I tack my boat?' and 'why does it always want to face into the wind?'. I can tell you why, the boat is a little bit ...not right. :wink:

I figure I am as qualified as anyone to say this out loud. I am certainly not a naval architect or an engineer of anything but stringed instruments, furniture and boat interiors, but I have done a lot of research, enlisted the assistance of a prolific small boat designer and done much practical experimentation. Perhaps I have modified an actual Weekender more than anyone before me. I have made many major changes, slowly with thought to the effects. In the end, I have proven to myself that what I said above is correct and this boat can be made to work a lot better.

I know by mentioning all this it may confuse new builders. I really don't want to do that, it is not my intention, please build away. This is merely my two cents worth on this threads topic and interrelated topics.

These are really awesome little boats...but with much room for improvement. I am enjoying the heck out of mine!

[tdrown]

I think my mast rake was a bit off. The fact that I used cotton sails didn't help, they bag out and stretch. My boom actually would catch on the wheel if it were to hang loose. Look at my sail in my avitar, I'm holding up the boom and it has bad trim. I'm not sure if the sails were even made with an 80deg. angle at the tack of the sail.

To help solve my rake problem I just added another forestay with a turnbuckle, it works fine in getting a better mast angle. Needless to say I'm making new sails too, out of Tyvek probably.

[hborger]

i totally agree with you. i have sailed production boats for a long time, but part of the fun of building your own is dealing with, and correcting the stuff we know could be better. I think in my case, light variable winds on a busy lake in Georgia doesn't make handling any easier. Oh, that gas outboard sure looks nice on your boat. I really don't want to undertake a keel shape change, but the daggerboard option seems practical and relatively staight forward. I haven't seen any specs on daggerboard design recommendations (location, size,etc). Any suggestions out there?

[Tim Diebert]

totally agree with you. i have sailed production boats for a long time, but part of the fun of building your own is dealing with, and correcting the stuff we know could be better.

Although I found the boats characteristics aggravating in the beginning, I too have had a very fun time doing the research and the work to make changes I am now enjoying.

I think in my case, light variable winds on a busy lake in Georgia doesn't make handling any easier.

In deep summer, my winds are usually lighter than the ends of the season. Right now for example, I can go from all sail to a double reefed main and small jib in the course of an afternoon. It may get so windy as to go headsail alone. For summer, I am building a topsail and required mods in combo with a big lapper.

Oh, that gas outboard sure looks nice on your boat.

I always though it was pretty ugly, but it is almost certainly more than any weekender needs. Mine is a 2 cylinder 6 hp. A 2hp would be fine I would think. I have just used what I already have.....and make some additional income beachcombing and pulling stumps. :roll:

I really don't want to undertake a keel shape change, but the daggerboard option seems practical and relatively staight forward. I haven't seen any specs on daggerboard design recommendations (location, size,etc). Any suggestions out there?

I have the exact location that a dagger or center board should be, but there are many other things to be considered.

I added a dagger board to eliminate lateral movement or side slip. Many of the folks on this board believe their boats have zero lateral movement. Ray can even back up his opinion with numbers (surprise :wink: ), I felt otherwise ( as I sad many times before, I have done this stuff just to please myself.) I could actually see the slipping in reference to stationary objects. I am super pleased with the windward performance imrovemnets of this boat.

Any info you need on this topic or mods should be continued via email. It is easier for me. A phone call might even be easier.

tim@timtone.com

You might reconsider the forefoot mod as there is a side benefit apart for perfect tacking.... the boat is so much more easy to get on and off of when beached. It is not on so much of an angle. Plus it goes on and off a center roller style trailer way easier.

Cheers, TT

[kydocfrog]

I've always been impressed by Tim's mods to the keel and the daggerboard. I'm still seriously considering similar ones. I'm also seriously worrying about how long it will be till I can get CGII wet...not to mention how much longer I can consume the garage. I might end up putting the major keel and through hull mods off until after at least one season of getting the bottom wet.

mumble mumble mumble....hemmm....haw.....stall....mumble....

DocA

[Tim Diebert]

That's what I did Doc.

All my work was done well after the fact.

I would say get your boat done (unless you have not glassed the bottom yet...) and wet and in use. You might find it to be fine as is....as many others have done. Sailing is the main deal here. Just get out there and enjoy being on the water first, details later maybe.

Presumably all these boats are being made to make it possible to get out sailing.....me, that's what I signed on for. The boat is just the tool for the job. :roll:

[Tim Diebert]

I will mention that I have been approached privately on several occasions by folks either considering or actually in the process of building a WE.

Somehow they have found my web pages or babble here on the forum, who knows.

Anyway, at this point, there are at least two people actually building Weekenders with the mods (or versions of them) I have done.

Some folks have gone on to choose other designs. I have enjoyed talking to all of them. I all cases I have recommended this forum.....if they didn't already know about it.

[Brad Lustig]

This is what mine looks like right now....

I love your color-scheme, Tim. I've been daydreaming a lot about my weekender and wanted to do a red, white and blue theme. I may go with something along the lines of what you've got.

[Tim Diebert]

Thanks Brad.

The actual colours I use are a buff or sand colour, a dark grey and red.

Red White and blue would have the same effect I am sure....at least the same vibe.

I found that pure white was so bright on my eyes it hurt. 8)

[Brad Lustig]

Yeah, I'll probably go with the same "white". A little more antique looking that way.

[Frank Hagan]

well all i read sounds familiar. i too am having problems with tacking and attributed it to a lack of forward momentum. my boom seems low' date=' but when i compared pics of my boat with others, the mast rake seems ok. i think it is very difficult to measure the mast rake relative to the waterline. take a look at this pic of my rigged weekender on trailer and tell me what you think about the mast rake/ boom hight.[/quote']

It looks too low to me. Here's a pic of mine with a crowd of people (launch day). You can see that the boom is above our heads, and we hardly need to duck while tacking. Notice how the mast appears nearly vertical in this view (it is exaggerated by the camera shot; it does rake back, but not as much as either your or Tim's):

Here, Aslan is loaded down in the back with about 500# of passengers, and you can see the bow is coming up out of the water. Ballast up front would balance the boat out. The angle of the boat in the water makes it appear it has greater mast rake, but notice how I can sit aft in the cockpit with several inches of clearance between the top of my hat and the boom.

I have the Stevenson's sails, the mast made to the specs (although it is round, and a few inches taller to accommodate some extra rigging up high, the boom is in the same position on the mast) and the mast tabernacle is in the same place as the plans specify.

I have always thought that the deep forefoot of the keel and the high aspect rudder combine to make the Weekender well balanced. After sailing several other boats, I haven't changed my mind.