Too much weather helm

[Mike Pennington]

I am not even sure if I am using the right term, so bare with me. I have noticed :roll: on a down wind run when the wind is up that the helm is very touchy. For example, if the main is on the port side, and I get a change of wind she can take off on a starboard run, side ways to the wind if I'm not paying attention. You know, rail in the water, hell bent on a long run to come up into the wind, 180 degrees from the direction I was going. Perhaps, I just don't know when to reef, but I am looking to gain a little more control when running down wind. I suppose with a following sea this could really be a problem.

I have eye balled a few threads before when center of gravity was discussed. And I remember when Bob Cox was describing his rudder modification. He seemed to be aware of what I am talking about from sailing on someone elses boat and was looking for away to improve rudder control.

Can anyone :roll: (Craig, Ray, Barry, Frank , Oyster help!) explain what is happening or suggest something I might try to correct this? Besides reefing

A thicker rudder, a skeg, shifting ballast? Oh yeah, a motor that might make good ballast. :wink:

Mike

[Craig]

Mike the ballast helped the rudder pressure on my boat. Part of the problem is the ratio between the jib and the main. I suspect that design decision was part of Peter's safety analysis (these boats are way under canvased). The balance on the boats (Vac , Wkndr, and PC ) are tilted toward weather helm as opposed to balanced helm. You never want lee helm. Thus, when ever the wind becomes stronger it takes a helm trim change or the boat will round up (Turn into the wind). (I know you know the terms but there are a lot of new people now who may not.) Not knowing what the gale forces are that you are sailing in I would fly the lapper to ease the Wx helm. Another part of down wind control problem is the dory hull. Thery provide a wide flat surface for the waves to work on. My boat at least wants to lift and turn into the wind with a following sea. Here are some things to try. Put about 260 lb of something, sand bags work well, right at the base of the mast and see how she acts. Move this ballast around until it seems right to you. Increase your working jib to 100% of the fore triangle from the first stay. I don't recall what Bob did to his rudder. Even with these measures the boat will always be touchy in the conditions you describe. Just be ready for helm adjustments and to play out main sheet a little during the puffs and recover afterward. Learn to steer with your knee. I use my foot but muckalucks will not allow for that.... Let's see what the others think...

[Frank Hagan]

Sailing downwind is tricky. It sounds like it should be easy, right? Sailing directly into the wind is really impossible, so what's the opposite of "impossible"? You would think the easiest point of sail would be downwind.

While sailing directly upwind is impossible, at least it isn't dangerous. Sailing downwind is dangerous, as the boom slams from side to side (gybeing). The noise can be terrific. And it isn't just our little boats that suffer this fate (see this article on Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=jkrets0037

Know why all those big boats fly spinnakers to sail downwind? Because its not only faster, but the parachute shape of the spinnaker, pulling the boat as if the sail were really a kite, makes it easier to steer.

The main sail, rather than being designed as a kite pulling us along, is a wing, with the flow of wind over one side of it creating a low pressure area on the other side, moving us along. We "fly" our boats. But with the wind coming directly from behind us, our wings fight for position.

I have to admit I hate sailing down wind. Give me a broad reach any day of the week, and I'll be humming "Margaritaville". Send me sailing directly downwind and I'm wondering why I didn't get into building powerboats.

Why I don't think you have too much weatherhelm

The standard test I've read for weatherhelm is done with the main sail and jib "close hauled" ... trying to sail into the wind and finding the spot where you continue to go forward at a good clip without stalling. Get stabilized with sail trim and tiller (or wheel) set where you keep the course ... best done by aiming for a fixed target with your bowsprit. When you are steady on course, look down at your tiller, or wheel. It should be 2 - 3 degrees off the centerline to windward. (For the folks with a wheel, you should mark the wheel first so you can look at it and know when the rudder is absolutely in line with the boat ... many people have a spoke of the wheel that is at 12 o'clock when the rudder is at centerline, and they mark it somehow.)

If its a lot more than 3 degrees, you have too much weatherhelm. Not dangerous, but you end up fighting the helm all the time. If its positioned to leeward ... the side of the boat the mainsail is billowed out over, you have lee helm, which is bad.

I think what you are experiencing is just plain old downwind sailing and the dangers inherent in it. Read up on gybeing to learn how to control it. With a gybe (sometimes called a "jibe"), you are basically tacking, but downwind, rather than turning into the wind. It takes a lot of control on the main sail, and rather than allowing it to slam from one side to the other. A preventer can help, but what I've read the helmsman's control of the main sheet is critical, easing the boom over in a controlled fashion.

[John B]

When you completely lose traction with the rudder and the boat rounds up thats called a broach. Something I'm intimately aquainted with seeing as we did one under kite in a breeze, in front of a video camera, on sunday just gone. LOL.

Gaff rig always does load up a bit on a run but it might just be that you're not being aggressive enough with the helm. Sometimes you really do have to haul hard on it, get the tiller up to your ear to keep them going straight.

One thing you can do when it gets too much if you don't want to reef( assuming you have the main out as far as it will safely go, is to dump a wee bit of peak halyard off. ( heading towards scandalising the main). this depowers the head of the sail and relieves a lot of helm I find.A lot easier to do too.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I would agree with Craig on most every point. Ballast in the forepeak at the base of the mast will bring the bow down and help control. Twin batteries would help or try the sandbag approach suggested by Craig.

Ray will suggest external ballast to the keel and Tim will suggest reshaping the keel itself. Both are valid for what they wanted to happen.

Weather helm does indeed get stronger as the wind gets stronger. A rudder with a better profile may help from the experience I've had over the last couple years, I don't believe it will hurt anything. The high aspect rudder form works well with this hull/keel. I just feel it could be improved upon a bit.

I've just finished fashioning a new rudder for my Weekender with a more aerodynamic foil cross section. I believe that with the thicker rudder and a more dynamic shape to it that there will be more control and better responsiveness.

I had an old sign from a business that we sold some 30 years ago. It is Vertical grain old growth Doug Fir with very tight growth rings. The board after planing and cleaning it up is 1 5/8" thick and just about the same length as the stock Weekender rudder. I fashioned the airfoil shape with a rounded/tapered leading edge and feathered it out to a thin tapered trailing edge. Looking at it flat it looks just like a tapered aircraft wing.

I plan on doing a comparison between the two rudders in a wide variety of conditions. The stock rudder is made according to the Stevenson's plans. But with only a 3/4" thick cross section, it doesn't have much "foil" shape to it. Just rounded/taper leading edge and tapered trailing edge.

One other factor to consider is the mast angle, with greater rake, it will have more weather helm, with less rake it will have a more neutral helm. If you have a lot of pressure on the rudder in normal conditions for your outings then you may want to work on mast angle a bit. Taking a slight wedge shaped section off the front of the mast base and adding it to the rear of the base will straighten up the mast. How much, take an angle measurement at the front of the mast box to the bottom. A couple degrees will make quite a difference in the position of the mast and of course boom height as well. I would try it with a substitute mast base first. Then if it is about what you expected, then modify your standard base.

The larger headsails will decrease weather helm as well. A lapper probably isn't too large for normal use. I would put a set of reef points into it though. Also, reefing the main when the winds get above say 15 knots will help as well and settle things down right away. The Vacationer main is a lot of weather vane to have up when it starts blowing harder. And it will act just like one. Particularly with the standard jib in heavier air.

[John B]

Cross posted with Frank. Yeah, I agree. running flat off with a gaff rig. scary sometimes. I'd rather a good beat to windward. exactly the opposite to when I sail bermudan/macaroni.

[mustangermatt]

I sailed on a larger (65') traditional gaff cutter for several years as a teenager. A few things we did to deal with running...

1. A preventer line from the boom leading down and slightly forward to keep the boom from lifting up. That eliminated the most common cause of an uncontrolled jibe.

2. We often sailed on a broad reach rather than run since the boat was faster on that point of sail with both heads'ls filled, in affect "tacking" downwind. The shortest distance between two points is not always a straight line :-)

3. When jibing we put the wind a little more on the windward quarter first, eased the preventer at the same time we hauled the main sheet in all the way, then eased the boat around controlling the jibe with the helm.

4. In anything more than a light breeze we would round up into the wind and tack rather than jibe.

[Mike Pennington]

I love education. :wink: Okay I got a few things to try. I apprieciate the clarification, getting the right words in a row is important to me. Thanks Ray.

First I am going to fix the spool on the furler, I've been missing big blue :lol

I am also going to build a new rudder and box to replace my stock one this winter. I've put a bit of wear on it these past four summers. I'll be bugging you Barry.

Craig, I'll try the sand bags, too. I can't keep asking the Firstmate to go below, she'll get suspicious. I also still have plans to get a motor for next season, so that movable balast will come in handy.

I'll have to think about the preventer, not because I don't doubt one would help, but because I am not sure how or where to install one properly.

I am interested in what modifying the keel could do for me, Tim, when you join us, feel free to share some words.

Easing the peak halyard, good suggestion, I'll try that, John, I guess it is about time I run that halyard back to the cockpit, too. :roll:

Frank, thanks I feel better now, it's not just me. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong. I'll get my 100% up and flying next time I go out.

P.S. I think I use every part of my body when I sail, I must admit I could get away with more when I used a tiller. But I like my wheel, much more room in the cockpit now.

[Tim Diebert]

It's funny to be browsing through a thread and see my name mentioned as though I had been participating....and wasn't. LOL

John B.? The infamous Gaffer Johnny B.? Welcome. Some serious experience there indeed.

The point of removing the forefoot was to get some responsiveness to the helm. That modifacation does that very well. Totally changed the character of the boat and now spins on a dime.

The point of having an actual keel is for the same reason every sailboat in the sea has one. To prevent side slip when sailing anything up from a broad reach. The other reason was to move the center of lateral resistance to minimize weather helm. As we all know, you gotta have it...just not as much as these boats seem to generate.

The dagger board is not a factor when sailing downwind, Mike, as I lift it long before a broad reach.

I do feel the design could be improved on with my originally intended skeg added to the aft end of the stock 'keel'. I did not do so this this year as I lost patience with my restoration project and just needed to get into the water and get sailing. I hope to add this extra amount over this next off season.

When the boat was stock, I had a perfect 12-14 knot hot sunny August sailing day two years ago where the buddy I took along that day had 'tiller blisters' as he called them. He two handed that stick all day long until we were worn out. I thought the thing might even come apart. He had a mess on his hands but elated with the exciting sailing day.

Now days the boat is beautifully balanced with what I would call the right amount of WH. When it is heavy enough to be concerned about, the wind meter is showing about 15knots real. That is when I like to put in my 1st reef. The helm goes back to balanced again. This is with stock sized sails.

I did some broad reaching in a big blow a coupla weeks ago. Had one reef in and it had been blowing 15 steady (measured) with some gusts. Once I turned around and went downhill I wasn't going to stop to measure the wind again....it was blowing just as hard 30 minutes later, and I had my hands full at that point. The boat had a beautiful motion...never felt over powered or even close to it. I surfing down short 3 footers and having fun with that pleasant cork screwing motion I have come to know about this boat....and I think may be caused by the gaff main.

The ballast and the new underwater changes, combined with lighter spars, have given me a fun boat in substantial weather.

I have to add....in downwind conditions like this, you are constantly correcting with the stick. One of those wheels on there would be impossible to deal with in my humble opinion. My boat had the wheel on when I got it. Sailed it once. Had it removed and a tiller in it's place for the next sail.

I agree with others in that I rarely bother going dead downhill, it is way more relaxing, faster and more efficent to reach rather.

Just my 2 Canadian cents. (1.54US cents)

Good thread.

[Mike Pennington]

Thanks Tim,

My friend Lars Opland suggested a skeg. But I am a little unsure of where to begin, in other words, how big, what exact shape. :?: I guess I could make some thing up to bolt on, just to try it out. Looks like I'll be sailing with three Weekenders at the end of the month, I don't want to be humbled. I broke out the manual furling sail today, spool got busted in winter storage. repairs in the making. I always did like that big blue poly tarp sail.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a picture of your mod to the keel. :wink:

As to being included in on a thread, what can I say? :roll: If one doesn't take advantage of someone's experience to learn something new, then shame on them when they're sitting around like a dummy, whining HUH?

Sail On,

Mike

[Tim Diebert]

[Tim Diebert]

Here is a sketch of what I was originally going to do. Forget the sail plan, I have grown to love the full gaffer rather than a gunter and would not change it now. The advantages off the wind far exceed any windward advantages a gunter <might> have. Since adding the dagger board I am tacking through 90 at will so I can point (and maintain) as high as I wanted.

This images shows the keel as I thought it could be....and will finish it off...hopefully for next season. I have a stock rudder right now and am planning a rudder change similar to the drawing as well.

The forefoot was a monster to do on a finished boat...but I had thought to add the skeg area by through bolting in a 'deadwood' fashion....I have some white Oak that would work well for that.

Every single device I have ever owned I have changed or modified somehow. "Never could leave it alone.." As the lyrics go.

[John B]

Infamous? what a laugh Tim. Wait till I tell my wife.

I know what you mean about changing things.( wonder if I should make that bowsprit a bit longer, hmmmm)

[Frank Hagan]

Here's a quote from Judy Blumhorst, an experienced sailor in the San Francisco Bay area, where sailing can be an exciting endeavor indeed. She describes how to jibe (or gybe) when running downwind in a post at the Trailer Sailor BBS, West Wight Potter forum at http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/potter/index.cgi/read/37432

Here's the "Sailing school method" of jibing.

Before starting the jibe' date=' flake out your mainsheet and jib sheets to be sure they will run freely during the jibe.

1. Sailing on a deep reach take note of the wind direction. Look at waves and bubbles off your hull to determine wind direction. Look for a patch of smooth water if it's rough. (If you have crew, notify them with the command "prepare to jibe". Wait for your crew to answer "ready")

2. Sail deeper until the jib gets blanketed and the clew starts to drop. (aka the jib is "winking"). That's how you know you're sailing on a very deep run. Make careful note of your heading, using a point on land if you can rather than the compass, so you maintain it during the next several steps. If you don't have a point on land to hold your course, try visualizing your angle to the wind.

3. While carefully maintaining your course, release the working jibsheet. (If you have a crew member, he should haul the jib to the centerline using the lazy sheet,but shouldn't cleat the sheet off. But when single handing, just release the working jibsheet)

4. While carefully maintaining your course, haul the mainsheet until the boom is on centerline. Do NOT cleat the mainsheet at any time after this until the gybe is completed.

4a. Move your weight over to the new upwind side.

5. Give the command "Jibo Ho" or "Jibing" and start the turn: Everybody needs to keep his head down as soon as the command is given. With the boom on centerline and the mainsheet free in your hand (not cleated off!), steer the the boat slowly and smoothly dead down wind and then across the wind to the the new tack. You shouldn't need to turn more than 30 or so degrees to cross the wind if you sailing a deep enough run before you started the manuever.

6. As you cross over to the new tack, let the mainsheet run freely out, and the boom and mainsail will swing out.

7 Bring the boat up onto the new course, and trim the mainsail and the jib properly.

Fair winds, Judy B

[/quote']

[Craig]

That's they way ya do it. The importand thing here is to always have the main under control. Flying Jibes are fun but they scare the pax and tear the hell out of the boat after a while.

[John B]

We have running backstays on our boat so its imperative that we haul the boom in hard amidships. Once the boom is about half to 2/3s the way in we can cast off the weather runner if we want ( so both are off)but we have to get the new weather runner on at the time of the gybe.. basically as the boom comes in hard to the centre.

it can get character forming but inevitably its better and less strain on the boat and rig than a chicken gybe( where you round up and tack through it).

I save that for an 'emergency' myself. LOL. every time I do one of those I think" must remember not to do that again."

[Tim Diebert]

I always wondered what the procedure was when you are using running backstays. Thanks John.

What's the attachment? Hardware? Is the backstay wire in your case and do some use line? Curious.

Have you got a picture of your boat you can post for us?

[John B]

Hi Tim.

Backstays can be set up a number of ways. often block and tackle. sometimes on slides like a track type traveller. Mine are on levers. Levers are usually referred to by a generic" Highfield lever" term because Mr ( or was he Vicar)Highfields design became the most common type. My levers are Giles designs as it happens.

The disadvantage with levers is A, that they are on or off and off generates a lot of slack. B , that when you haul them on you can trap a finger perhaps as they go overcentre.

The advantage with block and tackle is that you can let them off a bit ( say for a reach), without having a whole lot of slack to catch around a buoy etc and so you won't get them hooked around your spreaders.(Lots of rigs lost historically due to that)

Levers are faster and easier IMO and we sail 2 handed most of the time so.....It suits us.

[Florin {VACATIONER}]

This is a good topic since we were experiencing similar simptoms. Having in mind we've only been sailing for a week now we really couldn't diagnosticalize the problems and this topic really helped.

Running down-wind we've actually experienced an accidental jibe on Saturday. I know running wing-on-wing is really dangerous because you have to pretty much be dead down wind for the jib to get filled properly, but it's so much fun... So we were running like such until either the wind shifted(which happens on this lake quite often), or I wasn't paying attention and keeping direction. I could see this happen but I didn't have a chance to haul in the main-sheet in time>>>in other words the boom just came across and just about hit the other side's shrouds. At the same time the boat started to turn very fast in the oposite direction. Sounds like a broach, but didn't turn anymore than about 90deg for I was quicker to react with the wheel. That kind of scared us a bit and for the rest of the day we made sure we never went dead down wind again, we tried to always favor one side depending on what our course would be. This hapened to us a couple of years ago when we were renting CJs and Mistrals at the local yachting club. At the time we did broach 180deg and our older girl literally flew off the foredeck into the drink.

Now I hate having to go down wind and I try my darndest to do whatever possible not to have to do this (except when in light aires).

Now on the tacking problem. We are still experiencing problems with stalling during a tack (about at least 25% of the times) more so during light aires. Yesterday we were sailing on our local lake and the winds were about 10kt when we launched, but within about 1/2hr they picked up to about 15kt and some whitecaps were starting to form. We got her rails wet every now and then which was a lot of fun. But when we wanted to tack, we've noticed that we would mostly stall in the irons... and most times the boat would have enough inertia to slowly fall off on the other side, but on the odd occasion it would fall back off on the initial tack. Now we haven't any ballast forward yet, and we're mostly all of us in the cockpit, so all the weight would be aft. Sometimes the girls would be on the foredeck (they weigh about 120lb together) and this didn't really seem to help much. I saw some plastic boats that could tack so nicely just going around the corner almost maintaining thir speed around the entire turn which really pi$$ed me off :-). We have a jib clubfoot ans so we cannot backwind the jib.

We also noticed the weather helm when sailing on a broad reach mainly... every time we would get a gust of wind the boat would try to round up into the wind and it took quite a bit more pressure on the rudder to correct the course, but I thought this was normal. We didn't get any rudder blisters and didn't get a work-out out of it but there was a definite difference in pressure applied to the rudder.

From what I told you so far can you tell me what we can do to speed up these tacks?

Other than that we are having too much fun and even if we can't solve some of these minor problems we'll still enjoy sailing in out boat.

Thanks

[Frank Hagan]

My Weekender tacks easily, even in light airs, so I don't know what the problem could be. You should be able to bear off a little and then say "Prepare to tack!", push the tiller or wheel completely over to the windward side and follow through the tack. You do need some speed, so "bearing off" is like making a wide right turn ... you swing out to get a bit more speed.